The Leadership Mindset that Actually Grows Your Business

0:00 I was not as authentic as I should have been. I was not as open as I should have been. I would just make up stuff on the spot to try to cover the fact that I didn't know. When I look back at it, Ryan, I'm like, oh, it's so embarrassing to even think about some of the conversations I had because I thought I was supposed to know the answer. Welcome back to the Path to Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Lang, CEO and co-founder of Empire Partners. And I've got H.R. Huntsman in the house with me today. How are you, man? Ryan, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, brother. I have been really looking forward to this show.

0:40 You are such a wealth of knowledge, and I think you've got so much to share with the person listening to this today. I'm super excited to dive in. I want to kind of go, I want to take an immediate left turn. Right out of the gates. Sure, let's do it. Let's play. I would love to hear... What is looking backwards on your career in business? What is one of the decisions that you made along the way in any of the businesses that you've run that at the time you didn't realize was going to be as impactful as it was? So you made a decision to either do something, not do something.

1:22 And years later, you go, holy, you know, holy crap, that was like a pivotal moment. Let's just talk about that decision in itself to start a business. Let's just talk about that. So all the businesses I've started, so I'm a serial entrepreneur. I am completely unemployable, 100% unemployable. I love starting businesses. I love helping build businesses. I think small businesses are the backbone of the American economy and American society. I'm passionately in love with that. Now, that's grown on me. I started my first company when I was 28. And sort of my last one has 52.

2:03 And I guess that, that ability to stand on the edge of a cliff and say to oneself, and I know I'm talking to your audience. I know I'm talking to all these bill, these business builders to stand on top of that cliff and say, I'm going to bet on myself. And I don't know everything I'm doing. I don't have all the certainty in the world. I am afraid. And to leap into the abyss anyway, I love that feeling. It is scary. It's exhilarating. It's exciting. I've done that a few times, and I love to be around people that do that. So it is that jump, Ryan.

2:44 It is that leap into the unknown, fueled by belief, challenged by fear. Doing that jump is life-changing. When you made that jump for the very first time, where were you coming from and what made you go, I have to do this? So I was coming from the Air Force and I'd spent four years in the Air Force and I went into the Air Force from high school came out of a broken, dysfunctional, painful, alcoholic, angry home. And I was going to use, I was a pretty sharp kid.

3:25 I was going to use my software engineering knowledge to become rich. And that's how I was going to... paper over all the insecurity and fear and crap that I went through. I wouldn't have been able to say it that way back then, but that's what I was doing, right? And I met John Simmons, who was a captain in the Air Force. He took me under his wing and mentored me. And he said, age, rather than pursue being successful, once you pursue being useful, don't, yeah, that stuck with me for, gosh, how many years is that now? 40 plus years later. And don't pursue success, pursue significance. And so at age 28, I started my first company.

4:09 It was a nonprofit and I wanted to change the world. I believed that I could change the world. had no money. I had no, I had no idea how to build a business. I had no idea how to do anything, but I had this passionate belief that I could make a difference. And I started that company from scratch, moved from Eugene, Oregon to here in Tacoma, Washington, and started that company from scratch. And over 25 years, built it to be quite large. And we worked in five countries around the world doing all kinds of amazing projects. But that was the first time I jumped What was it for you? I know I've got my own story on this.

4:50 I think everybody who's actually done it does. What was it for you that said, you came out of the Air Force, military service isn't exactly the freedom we enjoy is, As entrepreneurs. So did you just get out and go, yeah, OK, I got my taste of that. I don't want any part of of actually working for somebody else. I want to just live and die on on my own decisions and, you know, and kind of drive the ship. Or what was that decision making process like for you? Did you have anything that was compelling that you were kind of deciding between before you decided to make the leap? So I went into the air force believing I was going to retire from the air force.

5:32 Uh, I was going to retire. I had it all planned out and I have my whole life planned out all the time, by the way, and it almost never goes to plan. Uh, it's always shifting through it. So I'm, I'm very future oriented, uh, I'm very structurally, very disciplined. So always thinking about the future, always playing. It's a strength of mine. There's a weak side to that as well. So the military wasn't for me because it wasn't a meritocracy that I thought it was going to be. I thought I was going to join the military and I see myself as a high achiever. I'm a pretty sharp dude and I'm going to make rank and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

6:16 And I learned quickly that time and grade and time and service are what rank is built on more than ability and competence and all the stuff. So that was deflating for me. I saw morons making rank ahead of me just because they'd spent more time in the seat. And I thought, these guys are idiots. I should be making rank faster. And I made rank very fast, by the way. Anyway, so I got disillusioned by that. I said, no, I want to be the captain of my own ship. That's how HR is wired. So... So there's that mentality going on, but at the same time, I knew by then that retirement from the military wasn't as fulfilling as now I wanted my life to be.

7:05 I wanted to make a big dent in the world. I didn't just want to be wealthy or I wanted to make a significant difference. And I believe that serving people around the world, building orphanages and drilling wells and food and... and running counseling center and all that kind of stuff, I believed that was going to make a bigger dance. So I was driven more by that than by my disillusionment from the Air Force. I was really compelled by the change I thought I could be in the world. You know, I think that if you can withstand the difficulty, because it is difficult and it's not for everyone. I think that's one of the biggest benefits that we enjoy as entrepreneurs is that we truly do have an unlimited amount of impact that we can go make in the world.

7:53 And it's exciting to think about it. And I get fired up just talking to people like you who are fired up about that impact. And, you know, I just find people like that never stop. I think it's one of the greatest gifts we've been given, this freedom of choice and belief. And like you said, and like I said earlier, I love entrepreneurs. I love cliff jumpers that want to be part of the economic engine that drives our country, that want to create time and financial freedom for themselves and their family. They want to... bringing great services and products to the world that other people haven't thought of. Like I love that whole idea, that whole engine that just builds upon itself.

8:36 So I love hanging around with people like you and entrepreneurs for sure. Same here, man. Same here. Uh, I'm curious when you were early on in business, yeah, what are some of the, I, I, I think back on my early days of business and I can easily identify like, whoa, there, there were some mistakes. I mean, I didn't know any better about this or that or whatever. And, What were some of the early ones for you? Things that you didn't know about, mistakes maybe that you made that actually would help you later on down the road once you did finally figure it out? Sure. In fact, much of what I teach now to business leaders and entrepreneurs comes from my failures and mistakes.

9:19 I love that. Me too. I think I learn more by screwing up than by getting it right the first time. Yeah. I think that's part of the entrepreneurial journey is you have this cycle of testing and failure and you just keep figuring it out as you go. So I would say the biggest mistake that I make was I didn't know how to lead humans. That's a big one. So I started as a founder with just me and nobody else. And I wasn't raised in a leadership environment. So I didn't know anything. I didn't go to school to be a leader. I didn't have a clue.

9:59 So my entire leadership mindset was very directorial. It was very much, I'm the boss, I'm the founder. I know the things that we need to be done. Go do the things that I say to do. And I probably got all my leadership advice skills from watching John Wayne and some of these guys, you know, just this. The Duke. Yeah, the Duke, right? And that's going to, you know, that's going to timestamp me. But just this idea that the boss is the one who tells people what to do and everyone else says, yes, ma'am, yes, sir. And it wasn't because I was an a-hole. It's just that's, I didn't know any, that's what I thought leadership was. Yep.

10:39 I've always been a nice guy. I had to learn that that is, in my opinion, that's just not very good leadership. Because there is so much talent out there. And to limit it by my ideas, like I'm the only one that can have a good idea, and you just do what I say because I pay you? Like, I'm going to limit all this talent and innovation and creativity by being the director? And so my hardest lesson was learning, and here's the phrase I use now, learning how to mine for talent and to mine for billions. And I became a miner rather than a director. And now the task I assigned myself was to mine for talent and ideas and creativity and innovation.

11:24 And when I switched that, probably around a year, it probably took me 10 years to figure that out. I'm a slow learner. Probably in my mid-30s, when I began to figure out there's a lot of other great ideas out there other than mine. Let me go figure those out. So when I begin to move myself from the front of the room and help lead people out to the front of the room, that's when I really begin to learn what leadership was. And I'm still learning. I hope I never stop learning to be a better leader ever. When you made that shift, how, When you look back at it now, what can you clearly see you were being held back by that when you made the shift, all of a sudden, it was like, oh, this opened up.

12:11 Now we can go here. Now we can do this. Well, let's talk about what all of us as entrepreneurs don't want to admit is that we like to be in control. We're afraid to lose control. So we have to talk about fear and control. If we're going to be honestly better leaders, we have to talk about fear and the loss of control. And so many of us, we hold on tightly to that because what if they screw up? I mean, I would rather be the one screwing up than somebody else screw up because I can't control them and all the things that are playing to fear and control in a human dynamic. And so learning to truly begin to build... An organization of trust where we can have honest, hard conversations and we can dialogue about innovation and ideas, what we now call creative conflict.

13:01 Uh, when, when we can do that, that's when everything begins to open up. And this is one of the core concepts I teach in all of the companies that we get to work with is, is this idea of creative conflict that we can bring out billions in the room by taking time to mine for it again. That was one of my biggest shifts for sure. How do you notice a difference in the way that people respond to you when you go to more of a curious? Because this to me all boils down to curiosity at the end of the day. The willingness to be curious and holding the idea that it's possible that somebody else has a better, more creative, different idea to move us forward. What did you notice about how people responded to you?

13:43 Yeah, let's talk about curiosity. I've often been asked, you know, what drives me. And I would say my biggest superpower is curiosity. Like I, and you can trace back, you can follow the bread cones back to when I was a little kid and I'm taking apart stuff in my room and building radios and chemistry sets and trying to blow stuff up. And I'm insatiably curious. So curiosity, tenacity, and surrounding myself with people smarter than myself are probably my three pillars. So... curiosity, asking the right question at the right time and building a culture of curiosity. Albert Einstein said, if you give me 60 minutes to solve a problem, I'll take the first 55 minutes to come up with the best question.

14:26 Because once I come up with the best question, it only takes me five minutes to solve it. So taking the time to ask of ourselves, how could we do this better? Yeah. What's a better intake process? What's a better onboarding system? What's a better hiring? What marketing strategy? Consistently asking ourselves how we could get better and pressure testing what we're doing now so we don't get into that. We've always done it this way. Mediocrity. So using curiosity as a fuel, I think, is one of the greatest things that leaders can do. I couldn't agree more. And you know what's interesting about this? I don't know if you ever went through this, but I, you know, I grew up with my dad as an entrepreneur.

15:10 And one of the things that I think held me back early on is that I felt that it never stopped me from making a leap initially. But I, in my early, you know, I would say my first 15 years of business, I had a constant feeling like I was supposed to know things. I was supposed to know things like, you know, I didn't go I didn't go get my MBA. I didn't, you know, you know, go dive into startups and all of that. You know, I didn't. I had no experience. So but I had this I had this belief. It was so funny because I said this to my dad once late, late night where we're on vacation together. and late night and I'm like, you know, I just don't understand how you just had it all figured out.

15:54 And he just laughed and he's like, what the hell are you talking about? I figured out what we were doing. I'm curious if you ever went through that because that actually held me back. And it was so fascinating because I pushed through it some, but it wasn't until I literally had that conversation with my dad where he was like, I didn't have anything figured out. What are you talking about? I was just screwing it up and continuing to take action. Did you ever go through that? Did you ever have that expectation that you had to know it all? That's woven tightly into what I described earlier is that directorial mindset that John Wayne, like they always knew the right thing to do at the right time. Yeah, they did. Yeah. Rambo... So, yeah, absolutely.

16:35 I'm the knower of things. And so here's the problem. It's like we know we don't know. Like we know that, but we think we're supposed to know. And so we cover it with this imposter deal. And that's what I did anyway. I was not as authentic as I should have been. I was not as open as I should have been. I would just make up stuff on the spot to try to cover the fact that I didn't know. When I look back at it, Ryan, I'm like, oh, it's so embarrassing to even think about some of the conversations I had because I thought I was supposed to know the answer. Rather than saying now in a much more authentic way, I have no idea, let's try to figure that out.

17:16 That's a really good question. And having the, you know, personal security and authenticity and maybe it's just maturity and wisdom. It's not your knowing that makes you great. It's your curiosity that makes you great. That's so true. And being able to say, Ryan, I really have no idea where you think we should look. Yeah. That's just much healthier leadership. I couldn't agree more. And I think there's two sides to that, right now on one side, there's the fear. Cause that was a big thing for me. I grew up being, I, I, I got a lot of criticism, you know, from different people in my life when I was a younger kid and it really had an impact on me.

17:59 And, and, I was so afraid of looking stupid or, you know, not knowing whatever. And I think there's the fear of not knowing. But then on the other side of it, there's, there's also the, you know, the, it's so disarming, you know, and to just decide, you know what, I'm not sure. Let's figure that out. Sure. You know, and really, one, honestly, we think about, I love this, I love the quote, you know, that a statement closes the mind and a question opens the mind. And really, like, that's where all the good stuff is on the other side of that.

18:39 You know? Yeah, so good. I want to ask, so let's talk a little bit about the work that you've done and continue to do with businesses. Before you kind of got into, you know, working with and advising and consulting with businesses, you were kind of, didn't you begin kind of a little bit more on the nonprofit side of things before you got into for-profit? Yeah, like I said, at 28, that was the company I started. It was a nonprofit, for sure. We did all kinds of work, like I said, built urbanages and drilled wells and all the things to help do what we could to make the world, because of where I came from, that kind of childhood I came from, I really wanted to...

19:26 It sounds sappy, but I really wanted to make the world a better place for when I was gone. So yeah, that's what I did. And so what I learned along the way was I took all those mistakes and I learned that being a director and having all the answers and being the knower and all those things, like that's not the way to lead. And I began to change how I lead and build teams. And what I fell in love with, Ryan, was building teams. That's what I fell in love with. And so as proud as I am of all the projects we've done around the world and in the States, What really I fell in love with was that the fact that you couldn't scale, you can't scale a company until you multiply ownership, you multiply leadership.

20:09 So I fell in love with the idea and the concept and the ideal of how do we build what I now call a destination workplace work. great talent comes to work and they do profoundly, you know, wonderful things. And it's a place of meaning and it's a place of purpose and where we're always creating and innovating. So I fell in love with that and now that's translated into what I do now in my retirement years. I retired so I can now work with young leaders around the country. I love that man. When you decided to make that transition, was there any moment where you thought to yourself, well, okay, I've been able to generate so much success in the nonprofit world.

20:53 Sure. Was there a moment where you went, Hmm. Does, does this actually all apply to the for-profit world? What was that thought process like? Oh, a hundred percent. So that's the second big cliff I standed on. I stood on was, will this translate? Because there's a lot of stuff I didn't know about. I didn't know about VCs or private equity. I didn't know any of that kind of, I didn't, that wasn't a thing. I just, I knew how to work with donors. I knew how to cast vision. I knew how to build teams. I knew But I didn't know a lot of this other stuff that for-profit has to know. And so I did. I asked myself the question, am I even relatable to the for-profit world? I told my wife, we joke about it now. I say, I'll give it six months. We'll see what happens.

21:35 And here we are. That's awesome. Yeah, you never know. I don't know. You know, I... Hold on. It turns out that all business is people business. I stumbled upon this idea that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're a for-profit, if you're a plumber, if you're an electrician, if you're a doctor. I work with them all. And it's all the same. You have people. You have to get them together, rally around an idea. You have to sell goods and services. You have to learn to communicate. It's all the same. It's all the same. You know, I just wanna say how glad I am that you decided like, what the heck, let's go try this.

22:19 Because I think that's one of those things, right? Again, I think it's the, most people would stop. Most people will go, well, and it's an identity thing too, right? I think that one of the things that I'm hearing about the way that you describe yourself is that you just identify as a curious person who wants to go make an impact in the world. So many other people get wrapped up in the identity of what they're doing and they go, well, I'm a nonprofit guy. I can't I can't go play over there. You know, they won't take me seriously or I don't know enough or I can't figure it out. Whatever. Yeah. I just love that you that that you had the identity of going, well, yeah, I did that. And that was great. But what if. Yeah. Yeah.

23:00 And the fear is real. I mean, I don't want to pretend like it's not scary to jump off some of those things or face people who say, what do you know? You just did this thing. You don't know how to do this thing. And you go, yeah, you're right. Let's see what we can figure it out. So let's not pretend that there's not fear involved. But I'm a big believer that fear is a fuel and it's not going to stop me. I have a... I have five-year-old and four-year-old grandsons, and we play together all the time. I'm popping to them, and I get to hang out with them. They're like my besties. And I teach them this. We do all kinds of things in our woods here, and some of it's scary. And so I tell them, it's okay to be afraid. It's just not okay to let fear stop you from trying things.

23:43 So we're walking on logs and jumping off things and, you know, doing all kinds of crazy stuff that little boys do. And it keeps me young. But the same is true for a five-year-old and for a 65-year-old. It's okay to be afraid, but it's not okay to let fear stop you. Yep. No, well said. So let's talk a little bit about how you're working with businesses now. Tell us a little bit about your company and the way that you work with businesses and entrepreneurs and founders. Sure. So company is Leader's Edge, and it comes from the idea that iron sharpens iron and that when we work on ourselves and hone our edges, it gets a little bit better every day.

24:26 And all you have to do is get a little bit better every day. So my dad, he died when I was really young, but my dad was an electric engineer for NASA. And so part of my brain has that engineering brain, so I think in terms of systems. So I created what we call our high performance engine and engine is six letters and it stands for six systems. Every business doesn't matter what it is for profit, nonprofit doesn't matter how six systems. And we go through those systems, foundation system, team building system, strategy system, accountability system, efficiency system, and profit system or financial system. And so in the engine system, In the engine program, we walk these companies through those six systems and we train and evaluate and facilitate.

25:15 And I think what sets us apart is we just don't teach, we... It's highly interactive. So we're working with them. We want their ideas on how to take these best practices and apply it to their personal deal or their company. So that takes about a year to walk through all those. Those are half-day workshops once a month. So that's ENGINE. ENGINE is all about infrastructure and scaffolding and systems and design because you can't scale without that stuff. That's right. document everything. I'm a big believer in documentation. You can't keep it in your head, you know, all the things. So that's engine. And then what we learned in all these companies grow, uh, And so they'd promote all these doers to leaders, and those are two different things.

26:02 You take the widget salesman and you make him leader over the sales team. He doesn't know how to lead humans. So we found these companies kind of getting stuck with these producers in seats where leaders needed to be, and so we created Elevate. So then Elevate normally follows engine. Some reverse those two, and Elevate is our leadership development program, and it's 18 different teams. sessions on very, how do you lead a meeting? How do you do corrective conversations? How do you cast vision? How do you lead a room? Like all the basic fundamental leadership things that you and I learned through hard knocks. Yep. Yep. And we teach those things through elevate. When you look at an early stage company, at Empire, similar I think probably to your business, we have a lot of people that we work with that are in a spot where they've built something.

26:55 They've got an elite skill set or they've built an amazing product or service. And they've built something that's better than most. They're far enough along that they know they're not going to quit. But this whole idea of like freedom and working from the beach somewhere and I actually have time for my family, you know, and I'm I'm fit and my health is not a hot mess. You know, they're looking around going. how in what, you know, mystical world do I actually arrive at, at, at this place? What do you feel like that's the classic sort of, I'm still stuck way up in the business. I can't work on it. And yeah, we hear it.

27:36 I almost feel, I almost hate to say those words anymore because we hear them so often. Sure. But what are some of the things that you see in businesses and business owners that are at that stage that really hold them back? Yeah, it's such a great question. First, I'm going to say to that person, if you're listening, I want to say to you, I champion you. I mean, you're doing a hard thing. Again, I love entrepreneurs so much. So if you're listening to this, way to go, way to bet on yourself, way to try something hard that most people won't ever try in their life. So way to go. ma'am, sir, nice job. Next thing is, yes, you have to get out of your own way.

28:16 And there's no, there's no real easy way to say this, Ryan. It is, there's a, there's a gap between that founder and the next set of people. And, you know, the belief gap, the belief of what this can become, the vision gap, whatever you want to call it. There's a big gap between that founder's mindset and the next set of leaders. And, and, and tell we, are able to leak vision and get people infected with the belief that this thing is amazing, this widget that we think is better than every other widget, until I can multiply that into other people, I am going to be the bottleneck and we are going to be stuck. So we use that phrase, work on, not in.

29:00 There is no easy way to say this. You have to put in the time of not doing the thing, but training other people how to do the thing. And it does. It takes time. It takes energy. You can do it faster. You're better at it. This is your baby. But until you multiply that and close that belief gap between you and the next layer of people, you're going to be stuck right there in that place of frustration, not being as free as you thought you're going to be, not having the time you thought you're going to have. And so you have to do the work of building up those other people to begin. We call it transfer of authority. The opposite is benevolent over-functioning where you're doing all the work.

29:42 So you're over-functioning. And until you transfer authority, not just delegate tasks. Pay attention. This is very, very important. I'm not just delegating tasks that I still have ownership over. I'm training people to have true authority. I'm transferring authority to them, which depends on trust. Until that happens, that founder is going to be stuck. In my opinion, that is the second stage of hard work. First is the idea. It's filling out the forms and getting that LLC done and just leaping off there and quitting your day job. Like that right there, way to go. The very next layer is that transfer of authority to your next tier of people.

30:25 I love this, man. I'm curious, and we don't have to name any names here, but can you think of anybody that you've worked with who gave you serious resistance on that one in particular? I've had a few people who fought me tooth and nail on this. Ryan, you just don't understand. No, there's no way. I can't. Yeah, these people don't get it. They don't understand as much as I do. I can't trust them. I've heard all those, as you have, I've heard all those things. I've been doing this for 30 years. I've heard all those things. And I tell them, then you are choosing to stay where you are. You say you want to leave where you are. You say you want to, you brought me on the team because you said you want to be different, but you're actually the problem here.

31:09 So either you change your mindset change your approach or you're stuck. Now, if you're telling me you can't trust your people, then I have to ask, you know, one of two questions. Why are you hiring untrustworthy people? Or are you the problem that you don't know how to give trust away? So those conversations are hard conversations where I poke people in the chest and I put up a mirror and say, ma'am, sir, you need to take a really hard look at yourself. Because if you think you're the only one that can do all of this, you have chosen to be exactly where you are. Let that sink in for just a second.

31:52 I agree with you a thousand percent. And I think it's a really actually interesting paradigm that we can find ourselves at. If we're self-aware enough or we've hired good mentors who tell us the truth, you know, the truth, like a good mentor will. There's an interesting paradigm here because a lot of times, HR, if we've been in that spot where we don't necessarily fully understand leadership, we think we are the ones with the idea, what we're doing a lot of times is when we're hiring, we're hiring errand boys and girls in our company, essentially, not people who are going to take ownership of something.

32:34 And it's a fascinating spot because I think that... Oftentimes, I mean, sometimes you've got the people on the team and you're just not you're just not getting enough out of them because of your leadership. In other cases, you've brought people on the team who aren't the right fit if you're going to actually ask them to go own something. And I think that becomes a bit of a stuck point for for some folks as well. I think, Ryan, you're absolutely right. I think who you surround yourself with and who you bring on the team is critically important. You know, it goes to that team building system. It's system number two in the engine product is you have to really design each of those seats very carefully.

33:15 You can't just wing this thing. If you're, I mean, no professional level coach or GM of a professional team just says, oh, just get whoever wants to come play basketball for us. They're very meticulous about who they're getting on their team and how they're drafting. And, I mean, they're going through the combine and all those things. And they're about to pay millions of dollars for this talent to come on the team. I wish business owners would be as meticulous with the talent that they craft around them, that they really hand select. They design that seat and the person that's going to fill that seat, not just the skill sets, but the character traits and the culture we're trying to build and the vision we're trying to like all the things.

34:00 And most people just say, oh, we need people who can do these three skill sets. Let's just go to Indeed and see who fits the deal. And they don't think about culture and character and team and all the things that are actually the most important for building that high performing team. Yeah, that's so spot on. As we're kind of talking about stuck points and transition and bumping up against that current version of your identity, I want to go to something actually that I didn't get a chance to ask you about when a few months ago I was on your podcast and we were kind of talking about me hitting that wall and my epic meltdown and all of that kind of stuff.

34:44 And you sort of said in passing... You know, that sort of sounds familiar. You know, kind of burned it down at the end of my deal. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share a little bit on that, because I know how many of us go through that. Some people are going through it right now as they're listening to it. I'm just curious if you'd be willing to share a little bit how you kind of, you know, reach the edge of who you were at one time, recognize that you had to kind of rebuild it and made a different move. Yeah, you bet. It's one of the most painful, embarrassing moments of my life that became the catalyst to HR 2.0. So I'm in my mid-40s and just the typical entrepreneur just burning the cam at both ends, trying to please everybody.

35:33 It's a nonprofit. It's a nonprofit. You have everything that a for-profit has to do, which is goods and services. And then you have everything a nonprofit has to do, which is raise the millions of dollars for those programs. If you're building a well or whatever you're building, an after-school program. So what most people don't realize about nonprofits is they have to have this extraordinary skill set of raising money and building teams to do the work. that took a deep, deep toll on me. And it took a toll on me because I did not create the boundaries around my life that I needed to.

36:15 And so I said yes to too many things and too many people that I didn't want to offend because they were donors or part of the team or whatever. And so that feeling like At the core of it, Ryan, is the feeling like I had to please everybody and I lost myself in the process. And I wasn't the leader I wanted to be. And I wasn't the husband I needed to be. I wasn't the father I wanted to be. I was not the man that I wanted to be. Like I had lost sight of all that stuff in this rabid pursuit of growth and impact and success and all this stuff that we can get just drunk on and just burned myself to the, to the ground.

37:00 And I had to rebuild myself, uh, into a much more authentic, courageous, more vulnerable person who was willing to ask for help and put people around me that, you know, and I gave myself permission to be authentic and say, I don't know, and I need help. And, and in the last, what I'm 61 tomorrow, actually, And in the last, whatever, 15, 16 years from then, I've had to rebuild myself into a newer, healthier version of myself with just better boundaries and a better view of myself and better identity. And so everyone who's listening is going through that same thing. And you think you have to say yes to everybody and please everybody.

37:42 And I'd ask you just to slow down a second, look in the mirror and say, are you the person you really want to be? Like when you put your head on your pillow at night, are you happy with who you're becoming? And I wasn't at that time. And I am now. What was it internally that told you, I have to make a change or else? So everything for me is about relationships. Like relationships and legacy is, you know, the legacy I have with my kids and my grandkids, we're a very tight knit family, been married 40 years, only girlfriend ever had. And so I realized that I was, that those relationships were on the back burner for me.

38:23 And those are actually the most important things to me. And I don't say that, as a cliche, like everyone's going to say that, because I come from a very broken background, very broken childhood with almost no relationships, that's a key part of my life. And I realized that the way I was leading my life was... threatening those because I wasn't giving them the attention that they deserved. And I knew that is not the man I wanted to be. And so I had to, I had to rebuild a life where those things became far higher priority, not just by my words, but by my behavior, by the time I spent by being fully present in conversations and not just always being on the phone to whatever donor, whoever needed to talk to me at any given time.

39:12 And I just had to reorient myself. Well, listen, I want to say kudos to, you know, making that shift. But really, thank you, because I think that there's so many examples, HR, that you and I, you know, could look back on. I mean, over the course of time where people... people recognized that they had to make a shift. And when they made that shift, they all of a sudden made, you know, exponentially increase the impact that they were having. And I think that's a fascinating piece because I think a lot of times, you know, like, you know, you were really seeking impact and growth and things like that for your organization.

39:57 I was seeking... More money, you know, more crazy experiences, all the things. And you just, you know, I think that a lot of times when we're stuck in it, we don't fully recognize that on the other side of it, all of a sudden the whole world opens up. in terms of what becomes possible. And I love that you made that shift because some people don't ever make that shift. And it's just heartbreaking to watch. And what they end up leaving on the table, it's awful to look at. So I love that you were able to make it and I love what you're able to do on the other side of it because I would argue that it's even a bigger impact.

40:40 And which sounds ridiculous. You were, you know, burning it down, working, you know, way too many hours and all of the things you would think the opposite. And it's so not true. And that's been the case for me as well. So in that HR 1.0, yeah, a lot of impact. I've given 4,000 talks. I've spoken to about 400,000 people. I built an organization from scratch. I've built orphanages and wells and vegetable gardens and after-school projects. So lots of impact. Here's the biggest difference that I can put. And I'm still an ambitious guy. Like, I'm still, I still want to do amazing things. But the biggest difference that I can tell you is on the inside, that HR 1.0 is fueled by fear.

41:25 Fear of not measuring up, fear of not being enough, fear of letting people down. That HR 1.0, I can tell you the internal engine was fuel-driven. I mean, fear-driven. HR 2.0, still ambitious, still deeply curious. I'm still wondering what I can do and who I can impact and the business I can help change. So a lot of it, the outside looker would say, oh, he's kind of the same guy. But now the fuel is very different. I'm fueled by... what I call just a love of the game. Like I just, just a love of, of life and helping people and building and just a, there's just a greater authenticity and I'm more relaxed and I enjoy being, I'm fully present with my family and I'm not thinking about the next thing.

42:14 I'm afraid everything's going to fall apart. And so for all of your listeners that are leaders out there that are fueled by fear of what if I don't? That was a big catalyst to me. Like I can't be fueled by that. I take Roosevelt's man in the arena deal. Right. And I think I want to play the game just for the love of the game. And the game to me is impacting leaders beginning with my family. I love that, man. I want to, it's a perfect, perfect segue into, I mean, let's talk about the, the Huntsman Hope Foundation and what you're doing with that. Tell us more about that because I know it's something that you're super passionate about.

42:54 You're still so big on, on giving back, creating impact, all of the things. Tell us more about Huntsman Hope Foundation. Yeah, that's never left me. You know, I built Leader's Edge in my retirement. I was just going to do this part-time when I started, and I just love building things. So Leader's Edge is the for-profit company. We work with businesses. But a part of that for me is it's never left me that there are people around the world that need help. And so one of the greatest uses of wealth is to bring change to those who don't have any. So I created for my 60th birthday last year, I created the Huntsman Hope Foundation because it's never left me that I want to give back.

43:35 So my new nonprofit, and we're working in the poorest villages around the world. We're beginning in Africa. And we're focusing on three pillars, education, health, and then financial entrepreneurship. So the health is water. The health is food. The health is medical clinics. Education is a school. We're right now building a 300-person school. outside of Kisumu, Kenya. And then we're also doing microloans to entrepreneurs because I believe in entrepreneurship and small business. And there are all kinds of people in Africa with great ideas. They just don't have any capital.

44:16 So Huntsman Hope Foundation and our first year we've already put in four latrines, drilled two wells, and we're building the school as well as financing some wonderful entrepreneurs in Kenya. So very excited about it. Thank you for bringing that up. I really appreciate it. Oh, man. That's awesome. You know what I love about this, and it's a testament to who you are. This is something I wanna spotlight. When you truly are playing because you love the game, you can't help but wanna continue to be doing things. How many people have said to you, why don't you just pack it in HR?

44:56 Like, why not just, you got a beautiful family, you got your land out and Tacoma. why not just hang out and, you know, why all the business? Why are you going to get, and speaking of which, by the way, I just want to spotlight the fact that as I'm sitting across the screen from this man, you know, he's flying here to Colorado and getting into Denver at like 1230 a.m., to come hang out with us for a couple of days. You're still doing crazy shit like this, man. And I love it because I think it's the juice. What is it behind you that just makes you go, man, I can't hang it up. I gotta keep going.

45:37 So a couple things. First of all, I have a view of work that is maybe different than many. I think work is a noble thing. It's not something to retire from. I think work itself is a noble purpose. Like, I will never retire. I just don't believe in it. I believe in giving back. I believe in making a difference. So the idea of me just laying on a beach 24-7, just like that just like— No. For a short time, yes. Do I love vacations? Yes. But I love work. I love building great things. So one of the things to answer your question, the concept of work to me, work is a noble purpose.

46:21 And for those who think, oh, I hate my job, I've done all those things, well, find something else then. Do something that fires you up. Right. So that's part A to your question. Part B is I'm still curious. I'm coming to your joint. Like, I don't even know really what we're talking about. But I can't wait to see what you do. I can't wait to see how it intersects with what I do and how I can learn from you and build what I'm building even better. So, yeah, flying at midnight, I'll probably get to your place around 1.30 a.m. and get up at 6 or whatever it is to come listen to you guys. But I am. I'm curious. I have so much to learn. I can't wait to see what you guys have for us.

47:02 I feel the same way, man. As we're getting close to winding down, I want to ask you a really important question. Fair away. Let's just say there's somebody listening to this right now that is inspired by, you know, some of the impactful work that you've done. And by the way, I think, you know, as you sort of said, we have different ways that we can make impact, right? We have, we have, you know, the work that we're actually doing in, in the world with our businesses. Um, many people that listen to this right now, you're doing something to make people's lives better, right? We have that, we have nonprofits, we, you know, we have other ways that we can make a difference, but if somebody is listening to this right now and going, you know what, I feel like I'm on the right track with my business, but I'm not making a big enough impact.

47:50 And I'm interested in doing more either with a nonprofit inside of a nonprofit, starting a nonprofit. That's been so much of your world, HR. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you what, how do you tell a person like that to kind of get started? Yeah, just, I mean, this is going to be broader, is I believe seek out people who are living a big life and learn from them. So find that one of the smartest things I've ever done is to run myself with people smarter than myself. Same. So, right? So... If you want to do something that's meaningful, ask people who are doing something meaningful.

48:33 If you want to do something powerful, ask people who are doing something powerful. If you want to leave a great legacy, find someone who's leaving a great legacy, send them an email, get on their calendar, and go ask them a bunch of questions how they're doing it. And what I found is the more I put myself in the rooms of all these big people, the bigger I want to live my life. They inspire me. They challenge my thinking. They poke at my smallness. And so to that person, I would say, you don't have to figure it out tomorrow. You don't. I'm still figuring it out. You don't have to figure it out tomorrow. Put yourself in rooms with people who are living a high level life and ask them a bunch of questions. By doing so, you're going to gather information. You're going to know how to make the next step.

49:14 And that's all you need to do is just make the next step. I love that, man. Uh, HR in closing, Ed Milet has a saying that I really like, and I'm not, I'm not sure it was originally Ed's, but it's this concept that, you know, when you get to the end, basically, you know, you, you meet God and, and the version of yourself that he meant for you to be. And that, you know, his concept of hell is I don't, I can't even recognize the person that I was supposed to be. Right. Heaven would be man. I either, you got there or I'm, you know, I'm like right there. Right. When you think about that for yourself and I ask this as somebody who's, you know, to, to a man who I know is very thoughtful, who is, you know, does a lot of intentional things in his life.

50:04 What does that version of you look like? So when people ask me, H, how did you overcome the home that you came from? And I ran a counseling center for 30 years as part of what we did in our nonprofit. And they say, like, how did you change your life from how you came to how you are now? Like, how did you do that? And I say this, until you fall in love with a future version of yourself, you're going to stay stuck. Yeah. And so this concept that you're talking about, that future version of myself, that's what I've been pursuing my whole life, is that future version of myself that I think I would be proud of being. So what you're asking now is, where is the gap still?

50:46 I think the gap still remains is I'm still more currently more anxious about the future than I'd like to be. So I think that future version of myself would still tell me. I think the 70-year-old HR would tell the 61-year-old HR, H. just relax a little bit more, even more. You still have some contentedness to embrace that you're still not embracing. I think that version of myself would say, you've come a long way. That 45-year-old self, that guy was a mess. The 61-year-old self is much better, but you have some contentedness to embrace that you are worthy to embrace.

51:28 That's probably where he would tell me. I love that, man. I love that. HR, thank you for taking the time to do this. Love it, brother. You're a busy man. You're incredible at what you do. I can't wait to see you in a couple of days. And for people that would like to learn more about what you do or would like to connect with you, where's the best place for them to reach out and connect with you? Sure. I'm a personal dude. Just email me at HR at your leaders edge dot com. And we can chat about Huntsman Hope or the engine or elevate program. But just reach out. Say hi. I'd love to hear what you got from this conversation. Drop me a line. That sounds awesome. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Path to Mastery podcast. Until next time, take care. Thank you.