Why Your Brand Breaks Without the Right Systems with Willa Kammerer

0:01 Being great at what you do doesn't automatically make you great at business. The skills that got you here won't get you there. This is Path to Mastery, the raw and real business podcast for service-based entrepreneurs, consultants, and practitioners ready to stop chasing tactics and start building foundations that scale. Hosted by Ryan Lang and Brooke Bishop, co-founders of Empire Partners. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Path to Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Lang, CEO of Empire Partners and Willa Kammerer. Gal, I'm so excited to connect. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much.

0:41 Great to be here, Ryan. I want to ask you a question. I want to go kind of sideways right off the bat here. You made a connection that I thought was really interesting when we had a chance to chat the other evening, which is... You know, I think that in the context of marketing, we hear about brands and branding and personal brands. And then there's like the technical side of marketing. And we're talking about funnels and, you know, CRMs and email marketing softwares and all of that kind of stuff. And you've made a really interesting connection between the tech and the brand.

1:25 And I don't know that I've ever heard anybody talk about it this way. So share a little bit about how you view that connection between the two, because I think most don't even make it. Well, I think to step back a little bit and thank you. I think that The common way of building online when someone is trying to establish a presence and run their business online is to really think about, as you pinpointed, brand and tech as these two completely different things. And so what we see a lot of people doing is building their brand and building their tech on all these different platforms, kind of cobbling it together and expecting to have this cohesive brand presence. But... It requires so much more effort when you're trying to create that, you know, cohesive relationship when you literally are trying to kind of recreate it and patchwork it together in all of these different places.

2:17 And we think about it differently in the work that we do at Firestarter. We think that, you know, what would it look what does it look like instead if. the front end and the back end are aligned and are in relationship with each other and are designed around the individual person, um, building a system, a front end brand presence and a back end brand and business system that reflect the needs of who the person actually is versus kind of imposing this, this structure in the brand from the outside in. So we think about it inside out versus outside in. Wow. I love that. What do you see in that context?

2:59 You mentioned kind of sort of fragmentation, having, you know, 40 different platforms trying to accomplish, you know, or staying on brand. Stitched it all together with Zapier. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yep. Been there, done that. You know, obviously that would be an obvious mistake, but what are some of the other mistakes that you see people make in their marketing relative to creating that cohesive brand? Well, I mean, I think as you know, and we all experience the online space is a very noisy space. And so I think we see a lot of people building their brands and their businesses and their strategies from this place of should, you know, well, this person, you know, borrowing from all these different places, following all these different gurus, thinking that the next shiny object is going to be the thing that makes all the difference.

3:45 And so pulling this strategy from this person, this strategy from this person, and everything I am not speaking from a pedestal. I am speaking from experience having walked this path, right? And reverse engineering. That wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't effective. That wasn't comfortable. That didn't feel good. So how can we build differently? So, so. I see a lot of people kind of building from that place of should, pulling from all these different approaches, cobbling together, you know, oh, well, that person seems to be having a lot of traction. They're using this platform, so I'm going to start using this platform. They're using this strategy, so I'm going to borrow that strategy. And they really lose their own voice and their own thread and honestly, their own power.

4:29 And I personally believe that we create the most powerful, magnetic resonance and we convert better and all of it when we are building from the inside out authentically, um, in the way that only we can versus borrowing from all of these other places. Um, because that there's just, there's just a disconnect and there's not that level of authenticity, congruency and alignment. I love that you use those words. And I'm curious for you because I know a lot of people that could identify with that. Lord knows I did that. And it got me nowhere. You know, just lost me like a quarter of a million dollars.

5:12 If you think back to that time, what was it for you that made you, what was your aha moment to go, okay, like beyond the dollars and cents of it, this is not working and I have to find a better way? Sure. I think it was really, so as I shared a little bit with you, I, you know, have always been an entrepreneur my whole career, you know, 15 plus years, but I was working more in the kind of institutional branding space, more B2B. And so when I stepped into the personal brand online space, even though I had been online and had a website since like 2008, it really felt like the wild west and this whole new world that I had to learn. And so there was my, You know, the tuition I paid for, you know, the over 100K of courses and mentorships and coaching and masterminds and all of it to try to find my place and learn how it all worked.

6:05 And on the other side of that, I just had this... aha, you know, I built in the way that I described, you know, getting all of these software platforms, racking up all these subscriptions and building from this place of borrowing and thinking that all of the answers were outside of myself. And I just reached this moment. And I think it was when I started thinking, I said, it shouldn't be this hard and it shouldn't be this expensive to build a brand and a business online. And so because I have gone through this and navigated this, you know, pain myself, I want to help other people not have it be so hard and so expensive.

6:47 But for me, as I started moving more into marketing, helping other people navigate, coaching a little bit around it. I realized I couldn't make good on that promise to help people navigate that without it being so hard and so expensive by telling them, and you need to go subscribe to all these different software platforms and learn how to use them and spend all this money to be able to do that. And so that was my kind of like aha moment. And we can kind of dig into kind of what that meant. But, you know, so... We decided at that time to change our whole way we were running our business and to white label a go high level account platform.

7:29 So we created Firestarter Funnels, which is the system that we now run our whole business on and have over 100 clients on it as well, because moving into the space. going from building my own brand online, figuring it out, spending all that, going through that kind of painful learning process, and then the journey of helping other people navigate that as well. It just felt like such a better solution to make good on that promise and really simplify. I completely agree. And I think, I mean, one of the things I want to honor in that is that, you know, we've got enough to worry about as business owners and we're trying to put on so many different hats at once, especially at the very beginning. And many people are, I mean, as, as I'm sure, you know, um, Not terribly technically savvy to begin with.

8:20 And when it's all flying around all over the place, even with a system like high level, it's interesting because I find, I don't know if you find this and I'm curious of your reaction, but I find a lot of people look at high level and they go, oh my gosh. There's so much here. And it's kind of like, okay, it's like if you walk into a gym, there's 80 different, you know, machines, and you got dumbbells, and you got, you know, barbells, and you got... You don't have to use everything in the gym, y'all. Find the things that work for you that are most necessary right now and focus there. I mean, how do you kind of help people avoid overwhelm with a platform that's as deep as high level?

9:05 Yeah, I think it's funny. And I think we chatted a little bit about this last night. I was very resistant to high level. So I was on all these different software platforms like many of us. And I think it's fascinating that that is the normal way to build online is to, you know, I like literally Kajabi, SamCart, ThriveCart, Flowdesk. Kit, ConvertKit, Zapier, like all of them. I was on them. And so because I was, you know, on all these platforms, what's another platform? So I had subscribed a couple of times to High Level to a couple of different, you know, to this white label, that white label to check it out. But every time I would open it up, I never did anything on it. I just, I was completely intimidated.

9:46 But then it just, again, was that transition point where I just... I decided to go all in on it because it just didn't feel like we could effectively help other people, you know, navigate in a way that, you know, wasn't, wasn't so, so, um, I think it is funny though, that. it can look intimidating. The way I describe it is when you open up high level, it can, maybe it's like 20% more intimidating than some of these other individual software platforms. But visually, would you rather have like seven, eight different tabs open on your computer and have to learn each of those platforms versus have one tab open. And to me, I look at it as a long-term investment and it truly is because, okay, there's maybe 20%, say 20%, 40%, whatever it is, you know, more of a learning curve to, to, There's a lot going on in the platform.

10:37 I admit it. It's maybe like not quite as visually simple as like opening up a kit, but you can do 10, you can do 10. multiple fold times more functionality on that single platform to learn. And as one who has never formally studied high level, just kind of like been running the business on it, we have a lot of support we've built around it, team members who are fully expert on it. But the more time you spend on it, just like anything, it's like it pays those dividends. And also the more you're running your business on it, the more data is there and the tags and to be able to follow that customer journey all in one place to have, you know, open up the dashboard, have, you know, revenue there, you know, different products, you know, see how it's all stacking up your whole business in one place.

11:24 There's a real power to that. So I would say like, yes, I fully admit there is a level of complexity that can be a little bit daunting yet at the same time. I think the other, you know, revelation for me in my own journey and how we've reverse engineered from there is, is, you know, the two things that I see really hold people back, the tech and the support. And so we have built a ton of support around, you know, how can tech not be this thing that is like this blockage point? You know, we have the weekly, you know, live support sessions, 24-7 chat, like all of these things so that it doesn't, it isn't this barrier that people can work through those stuck points.

12:04 Yeah. I love that. And I think that one of the things that I love about what you're saying is that as business owners, we've got to, I think that you can ignore efficiency to your detriment, right? And I think that, you know, for me, it was an interesting thing because I similarly resisted high level at first. And my argument was always, well, it does everything pretty well. That was exactly mine. I was like, I want the best of the best. So when I had SamCart, that's why I had SamCart and ThriveCart. Because I was like, well, some people say ThriveCart's the best. Then I was like, I don't really know. I'm like, I'm going to get SamCart. But no, then I wanted the top subscription of SamCart for $300 plus a month because I wanted all the functionality.

12:47 And so that was my resistance as well because I was like, I want the best functionality for each of the functions. Yeah. And, you know, at the end of the day, what we don't factor in is how much time are we wasting on these other platforms? How much brainpower is wasted, you know, understanding this and even data that's being stored over here and over here. And now we've got fragmented data all over the place. I think that's, I really think that's underscored. And I love that you guys have leaned into that. Yeah. I want to know we've talked a little bit about high level and I want to come back to you. You kind of referenced Firestarter. So I want to come back to that. Before we do, though, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you, you know, you have such a cool background in film and storytelling.

13:32 And, you know, in today's day and age of AI and everything, I think there are so many people who are very confused about how in the world do I stand out today? And I would just love to hear your thoughts on how as a personal brand, do I stand out in today's marketplace? What do you feel like are the differentiators? I think that it comes back to an earlier thread that we were touching on is alignment with who you actually are. I think it is scary to share your voice, share your story, share, you know, kind of the more vulnerable parts, but in my own experience, I, when I have worked through that and kind of the more I show up in my authentic aligned self, I'll walk back a little bit, you know, in my journey, you know, I navigated a divorce about five years ago, you know, when my son was a baby and the contrast, you know, those were years where there was this disconnect between what was on the inside and like my, and my lived reality and what was projected externally.

14:37 And, going through that journey of kind of coming into full alignment with what was true for me on the inside, aligning with what was on the outside, my story, and just not feeling like there was like this line or this kind of like double image that I had to hold up, which is just completely exhausting. And so I would just say, you know, it can be scary to feel like you're kind of revealing parts of yourself that maybe you'll feel will get judged. But in my experience... most of that has been in my head, right?

15:18 And just things that we build up. And I truly believe that we step into our true power when we let ourselves kind of fully express as who we are. And so I think that that is a differentiator. You know, and I think that is how we build, you know, a magnetic and kind of irreplaceable category of one, X factor, whatever you want to call it. Presence is when we are just being our absolutely unique presence. selves that only we can be. Yeah. I love this. I want you to take stock of the fact that, you know, I just had a great conversation with our head copywriter, Mike Samuels, kind of discussing actually writing your own copy today instead of letting AI do it.

15:59 And one thing that keeps coming up amongst the experts that I have on this, on this show and that we have internally and that we work with and that we partner with is authenticity is winning today. And it's so interesting because I think it's a dichotomy. It's like, you know, on one hand, I think that is really comforting to people. Oh, you mean I can just be myself and win? Holy shit. But at the same time, it can be scary. Like, oh my, you know, I think there are some people who had this sigh of relief when AI burst onto the scenes where I was like, oh, I don't really have to be myself now. You know, oh, I can just outsource it to AI.

16:41 And I love that you're saying this because it proves yet again, you know, my point, which is that the blue ocean is, is you being your authentic, you know, your authentic self that, that the power of one, I mean, really versus the, the red ocean being just blending in and sounding like everybody else, uh, looking like everybody else messaging like everybody else. I love that. How are you helping people do that through what you do at Firestarter? Tell us more. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, I think the tech is the foundation of our ecosystem, but I think what differentiates us is that brand is, I think maybe because I have been in the brand space my whole career, I can't help but, you know, think about and lead with brand.

17:28 So it's not just the tech for me. It's, it's not just the brand, but not just the tech because you kind of can't build one without the other. Like one is kind of empty without the other because, you know, to build a powerful brand and a powerful business, you need systems behind it. But to reach anyone, you need a strong, authentic brand. Um, and so I think what we've really tried to build is, um, The tech platform, but then also, I mean, templates is kind of a dirty word, but tools for people to be able to then infuse, you know, a little bit easier themselves into their websites, their funnels.

18:13 Yeah. And really bring them to life with, with who they are, but not kind of get, get stuck on having to really start completely from scratch. Um, so, and then in the work that we do, we are continually, we recently developed kind of an assessment based, I heard you were having an earlier conversation, um, But we've developed a system called the Authority Map, which brings together actually bank codes. You were just talking to Sherry Tree and Enneagram, as well as our kind of like brand building, kind of like methodology, brand and business building methodology. There's an optional human design layer. So kind of crashes all of these together into really trying to kind of shortcut the deeper essence of because I believe everyone is.

19:02 unique, built to build differently. Right. And, um, how can we, but again, there's a lot of noise out there. There's a lot of clutter and it can be hard, I think, for people to trust their own voice. And so we could accomplish that in, you know, 40 hours of kind of like coaching and deep work together. But what, what if we could help shortcut that and kind of like through, um, these assessments and tools and the power of AI to kind of assimilate everything, kind of reflect back this mirror of people that can help them kind of have that like aha self-knowing validation. Oh, like that's why it's okay. Like I've always been inclined this way. You know, I don't love being live.

19:45 Like I do better, you know, kind of like creating, you know, a course or maybe like I've never, a lot of people are creating courses, but like, I just, I just light up when I'm in the room, right? Right. Different people are wired to build differently. And I think that what we try to help people do is build business models and brands around their, their unique superpowers. Right. So it's all aligned. I love that because I think that one of the things that stops people is there's, there's so much friction and should, oh, I should have a course. Oh yeah. I should be doing Facebook lives once a day, you know, whatever.

20:26 Um, yeah. And I think that to your point, I think when we remove that friction and actually take the time to assess and listen and pay attention to how we're wired, what our gifts are, that kind of thing, it becomes easy and it becomes fun at the end of the day. And I love that you're helping people to kind of figure that out and to forward their ability to do that. So inside of Firestarters, tell us a little bit more about kind of like what the experience is. You guys have some weekly calls. There's the GHL white label, that kind of thing. What are they getting when they walk in? Yeah, sure. So we have this like beautiful triangle kind of like pyramid of our ecosystem because we really think about, you know, the business and kind of like services, you know, as this kind of really full service business support ecosystem because, you know, we'll talk more about this later.

21:20 But like there's different stages of a business journey and your needs at one stage are going to be different from your needs at a different stage. Yeah. Firestarter Funnels is really the base of our ecosystem. So all of our clients, you know, are on that platform, the kind of like shared language and, you know, kind of like technical foundation of everything. So that's really kind of like the do-it-yourself path with a lot of support. So, you know, we have, you know, as part of the base subscription, three weekly live tech sessions with our team, you know. high-level experts, 24-7 chat, custom templates that we have developed that have been very involved in building, and community. We have a community. We've got, I think we're around 115 business owners on our platform now.

22:05 So there's a lot of, from all different verticals, and I think there's a lot to be learned in community also and to not feel like you're navigating the tech alone. Beyond that, we also... we have people who want to throw themselves in, roll up their sleeves and, you know, build themselves and they have a lot of support for that. But then we also know that not everyone wants to kind of be hands on to tech. So we have, um, you know, done for you, funnel builds, website builds, um, brand building and, um, kind of like also wrap wrap around kind of like strategy to kind of like build out the whole presence to be able to kind of step into that next level. So. That's awesome.

22:45 And I love that. I actually love that you've got multiple ways that people can work with you because I think it's one of the things that I've definitely found in working with so many different types of people that, you know, some will dig in and do the tech work. You know who you are and some won't and you know who you are. And I think that having that component is really smart. And again, it removes a point of friction for somebody to actually be able to go out and build a brand that feels aligned. And when you've got a brand that feels aligned, business in general just becomes easier. And I also love too that you've got, you know, tried and true and tested funnels and things of that nature that people can plug in.

23:30 Because I think that's one of the biggest points of overwhelm is at the beginning, it's like, well, okay, you know, uh, I want to get aligned here, but, but, there are 8 million different ways that I can go about this. I love that you're giving them a system to be able to roll with right out of the gates. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes back to that beginning of like, what are all the stuck points? And as I was, you know, journeying online, I was like, okay, so like this lead magnet thing, you know, email opt-in. And it's like, how can we build all the pages that one building a business and a brand online needs? And how can we kind of like put suggested language in there? So really like, where are all the pieces? parts of the process where one could get stuck and how can we create a solution so that there's no possibility of getting stuck.

24:17 I love it. I love it. Well, Willa, so first of all, thank you for taking the time to do this. And I'm really, I'm, I'm so excited we got connected. I think we're like, you know, we've, we've definitely got some symmetry here and excited to figure out some things that we can do together, but for the purposes of the person watching, where can people connect with you? How can they get more information on Firestarter? Sure. So you can find me on Instagram and LinkedIn. My name, Willa Kammerer, K-A-M-M-E-R-E-R. You can find me there. If you are curious about learning more about the tech and Firestarter Funnels, I do a weekly live masterclass, 1 p.m. Eastern Mondays, 10 a.m. Pacific.

24:58 You can register for that, thepersonalbrandos.com. So the personal brand operating system masterclass. So personalbrandOS.com. Would love to see you there in the room. And yeah, just happy to be here. And thanks so much for this conversation. I love it. Willa, thank you. And listen, I want to honor you too, because... I think one of the most powerful things that we can do is when we go out on a journey of entrepreneurship and screw things up and try and fail and lose money and do all the things. I think one of the most honorable things that we can do is to lift other people up by helping them avoid those mistakes, easing the pain a little, at least, you know, because business and entrepreneurship, there's always going to be some pain.

25:42 But I love that you're doing it. You just radiate light and you've got such a great heart. And I have no doubt you're already making a massive impact in what you do. But I think my spidey sense says it's just the beginning. So excited to do more. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Path to Mastery podcast. Until next time, take care. Thanks for listening to the Path to Mastery podcast. If you got value from this, leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode. And if you know another entrepreneur who needs to hear this, do us a solid and send it their way. We'll catch you next time on the Path to Mastery podcast.