SHUV: The Leadership Framework That Makes People Feel Seen, Heard, and Actually Want to Follow

0:00 Being great at what you do doesn't automatically make you great at business. The skills that got you here won't get you there. This is Path to Mastery, the raw and real business podcast for service-based entrepreneurs, consultants, and practitioners ready to stop chasing tactics and start building foundations that scale, hosted by Ryan Lang and Brooke Bishop, co-founders of Empire Partners. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Path to Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Lang, CEO and co-founder of Empire Partners. Brooke Bishop, not in studio today because I have a much bigger badass on camera than Brooke today.

0:43 My man, Josh Roberts is here. What's going on, bro? What's up, man? Dude, so good to see you. For those of you just tuning in, Josh spent 20 years in the United States Air Force leading people through high stakes missions, hard decisions, and everything in between. Today, he's the founder of Fusewell Strategies. He's a leadership coach, a keynote speaker, and author of Leadership Level Up. Yeah. His mission is straightforward, and that's to create leaders worth following because you can't lead others until you lead. You totally embody all of that, dude. I freaking love it. I'm so excited to dive in here, man. Um, bro. Okay. So wait, I'm going to put you on the spot.

1:24 Okay. Right before we went, you got to share this, uh, because I believe that part of being a leader, we're both dads and you had to show up as a dad leader right before you jumped on this podcast. Please share this story. Okay. Yeah, so my 20-year-old daughter goes to the University of Hawaii. So she's literally like 5,000 miles away. And she called me last night and was like, I'm supposed to provide snacks for my class today. I don't have any money because she's a college dude. She's like, I had $10. So I transferred money. She went shopping, bought all of this stuff, dude, and then was getting it out of the freezer this morning, dropped it, and everything went all over the floor. So she called me panicking, and I was like, What do you need?

2:07 Like, stop crying. Like, what do you need? And she was like, I just, I don't have anything. So I was like, I will door dash donuts to your door right now, which is the beauty of the modern age, right? Like, yes. From a doctor said, I can get donuts delivered to her apartment in Hawaii. So she just got them delivered about two minutes ago and sent me effusive praise about being the greatest dad ever. So huge win for me. My day is complete already. That's right. You know what I love about that is that honestly, like, in truth, there's nothing that's going to happen the rest of the day that's going to equal, you know, just hearing thanks, Dad. You know, dude. And I woke up last year and like I was like, this is going to be a shitty day.

2:51 And then like I was like, but I get to see my boy Ryan on a podcast and I got to come to the rescue. So it's already the best day of the week. So awesome. Well, man, I want to before we got a lot to discuss on leadership today, before we really get into the meat of that. I want to understand a little bit better how kind of your superhero origin story, how you got to where you are now. You know, we've had some private conversations, the two of us, and, you know, it was not an easy path growing up. What...

3:33 tell us a little bit about what was going on when you were a kid and, and some of the things that, that you kind of had to get through and endure that, that helped you become who you are today. Yeah. Um, so when I was born, my parents were both pretty hardcore drug addicts and, uh, I just, I even remember like being really young. Like I remember that phase. And then both of my parents had kind of a religious conversion and became Christians and decided that they wanted to be foreign missionaries. So spent like the next four or five years traveling all over the United States, Canada, raising financial support. They went through their training, ended up moving to Mexico when I was about eight and stayed there until I was 18.

4:19 Had some pretty traumatic experiences there with a cartel in particular. I got sexually assaulted when I was a kid there, multiple plane crashes, just a lot of trauma that happened there. And then when I was 18, they brought me back to the States and wanted me to go to college. And so I went to the same Bible college that they did. And while I was there... you know, ended up developing a relationship with a kind of an older guy that really wanted to mentor me. And unfortunately, like you see so often, there was ulterior motives for him. And so he ended up essentially drugging me and raping me when I was 18.

5:03 And it really started like this huge spiral for me of like insecurity. You know what I mean? Like people, I look at the image they see now and it's not, that's not, you would not even recognize me from when I was in that stage of life, but just the next, you know, Well, I ended up getting married really early and a month after our wedding, 9-11 happened and I ended up joining the military not too long after that, but primarily spent most of my career as a munitions guy, so building bombs. I was a drill sergeant for about four and a half years and then Just in that time, you know, deployments, we ended up losing our youngest son.

5:47 And then we also lost our home and everything we owned to Hurricane Michael back in 2018. So it's just been kind of this, I don't know, like a saga, if you will, of learning how to deal with and live with adversity. I won't say overcome necessarily because it's something, there's some of that stuff I still struggle with. So I wouldn't say I'd beaten it. but I have a lot better handle, um, you know, mostly due to coaching. If I can be completely honest, I mean, you know who my coach is. Um, so she's, uh, she's really, really helped me be able to better lead myself, which I think has resulted in me being where I'm at today.

6:28 Um, just, uh, feel very grateful for that. So life has been easy for you, clearly. Yeah. And I want to ask you a couple questions that I'm curious about. And listen, I mean, we're doing this live, so if there's anything that's off limits, just tell me. But when you were younger, what do you think— What do you think stopped you when you were younger going through some of the traumatic experiences in Mexico and all of that stuff? What do you think stopped you from just going 100% sideways? Because a lot of kids do.

7:12 Oof. Um, I guess this is gonna, this is gonna sound kind of weird, but I think first and foremost with fear. Hmm. My, my parents were very rigid and I was, I wasn't the rebellious kid. I was the, uh, behind the scenes. Yeah. rebellious. So I wasn't outwardly rebellious. I didn't outwardly exhibit a lot of the behavior you see out of kids and teenagers, but behind the scenes and in the dark by myself, that's where the demons would get me. And so just everything from Even at a very early age, like a severe porn addiction to struggling with lying and creating half-truths.

7:55 And I just, you know what I mean? So it was never outwardly a whole lot. It was more what was happening in here, if I can be completely honest. And then when I got away from my parents, I went batshit crazy. So, yeah. So they kind of had, there was kind of guardrails that held it together for some period of time and then... Then you did graze out. It was more of an electric fence or no garter. There was an electric fence. But I'm grateful for it for the simple fact that it taught me a very healthy respect for authority. But I think I started to confuse authority with leadership, and it's not the same.

8:37 What is the difference between those two? Huh. I've discovered this very quickly in the military. There's a huge difference between people obeying you and people following you because following is by choice and obeying is motivated by an external motivator like fear or like punishment or like discipline. Yeah. You know, like the military. Yeah. you do what they tell you or there's consequences whereas in what i do now why would any grown adult choose to follow joshua roberts it has to be based off of more than fear it has to be based off other indicators that make sense no yeah absolutely i yeah i think it does i it makes a ton of sense let me ask a question just while we're on that strain um What do you why is it that you think that people get that wrong?

9:30 Because I'm sure both you and I have been around plenty of leaders in our time who have held the belief that they can motivate people by way of fear, as opposed to really getting people to follow and get on mission and things like that. Why do you think that people get it wrong? Because fear is highly effective at getting people to do what you want them to do. I mean, you know, look at, look at our historical examples. Joseph Stalin was a highly effective leader, if you want to put it that way, but it was all fear based, but people did what he wanted them to do. So it's when you focus on results. versus the heart and i think that's where people get it wrong like it and maybe it's not even wrong there's there's a time and a place for a motivator like fear like in the military like when you're in combat i mean like somebody has to be in charge and you have to make a choice and there's consequences but as a father if that's how i'm leading my family um i would argue that that's not the most effective means of it.

10:35 But I think people do go that route because it, number one is the easiest. It requires the amount out of you. You know what I mean? Like you just have that position and title or be bigger or what is scarier and people will do what you want. So it's not, there's no, you don't have to put effort into developing yourself. You just have to earn the spot to be in so that you can tell people what to do. Um, And it's, I think it's the, it's the lazy man's way of being effective, if I can put it that way. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that's right. I think I certainly, in my experience, it's definitely much harder. It takes, it takes work, it takes effort, it takes, it takes, you know, intentionality to really get people to want to follow.

11:30 if you really wanna get people to follow, you have to also put the effort into cultivating a mission that's worth following, right? Whereas if it's fear-based, you just tell people, look, this is what I want, and you go do this so that we can get it or else. Totally different than actually building out a mission. What do you think from a... Let's sort of... Let's get to the point where you went to the military. Because I've actually never asked you this. What was it that actually... What was it that actually got you to say yes to the military?

12:12 And second question. For those of you that are watching the YouTube video of this. Or if you've ever been around Josh in person. He looks a whole lot more like a Marine than you would think... Nobody going to the airport. So what the fuck is the story there, man? Oh, wow. Okay, so to understand the desire for the military, you'd have to go back to me being in Mexico. Twice a year, we would come back to the States to go to El Paso to be supply-bind, and we would cross the bridge at the El Paso border And dude, there is an American flag there that's like the size of the state of Rhode Island. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's huge.

12:53 And I remember every time that we would cross that bridge, I felt safe. Hmm. And, you know, in Mexico, the police are to be feared. The military is to be feared. Your government is corrupt. And I'm not saying that the American system is perfect. But what I would challenge people with is if you've never lived in another country, be really careful throwing shade at the one you live in, because it can be far worse than what it is here. versus what I lived in on a regular basis.

13:35 And then you couple that with my grandmother had sent me this book and it was just called Medal of Honor. And dude, it was just story after story after story Of people that won the Medal of Honor. And I was just intrigued. And then, you know, you throw into that watching John Wayne movies and Clint Eastwood and it was over. So it's all I really ever wanted to do. And I actually did join the Marine Corps for about two days and they messed my paperwork up. And so I ended up getting out the contract. And that's like being Marine was what I wanted. Well, number one, the recruiter lied to my face, like straight up bold face lied.

14:15 And I knew he was lying because I'd done my research. And then number two, I was already married at that point. And the way that he spoke to my wife was just such a turnoff. And so when I was able to get when I was able to get out of the contract, I decided I was going to go to the army and be a ranger. And I went to the recruiting office and it was locked. They were out and it just started downpouring. I walked in and... You're like... Yeah. The guy's like, I'll give you E3 and $7,000 signing bonus. And I was like, it's the military, dude. I didn't even know what the Air Force was, bro. So... Go time. Yeah. I ended up... I actually got a perfect score on my ASVAB.

14:56 And I could have done any job. And they offered me munitions or crew chief. And I was like, what's a crew chief? He's like, it's the worst, dude. Like... You're going to be outside. You're working on aircraft. There's not enough parks. There's not enough money. Everybody hates their life. And I was like, cool, what's munitions? He's like, best job ever. You walk in, they're like, build 20 bombs. If you build 20 bombs, you're done for the day. He's like, you just drink beer and you fight people. That's like, so beer, bombs, and fighting, like, perfect. Same on. You can go. It was not anything like that, for the record. But, oh, my gosh. Dude, that's... That is such a funny story, man. That's so funny.

15:37 I'm curious, when you got in, what was it? This is more for my own edification, but after you got in, I've known a lot of people who... who had an intention of going to the Army or Marines or something like that and ended up going to the Air Force and basically did four years and finished their four years and then basically did kind of a cross-conference you know, cross jump into where they really wanted to be in the first place. What was it that kept you? What was it that kept you in the Air Force for so long? Okay, so my initial, I didn't think I was going to be a lifer. But at the end of my first enlistment, I did a six year enlistment.

16:18 And at that point, we'd already had two kids. And so, to be honest, the medical benefits and everything. Yeah, it's huge. I mean, the military is masterful about making you afraid of getting out. I mean, like it's. Um, but I actually did, I had a recommendation. I passed all the tests. I was actually recommended by three different three-star generals to fly off to the army, um, to be a helicopter pilot. So I'd already been accepted into the flight program, everything. Um, and then pretty much like three days before I was supposed to leave, my wife was like, I really don't want you to do this. And I mean, this was right in the middle of Afghanistan and everything. It would have been surefire, like, yeah.

17:00 And, you know, I believe sincerely in God's timing. And I agree. And I just, you know, for my ego and my pride, that's what I wanted. But for my family's sake. And, dude, I honestly believe had I moved either to the Army or the Marine Corps, I was such an idiot. I would have placed myself in harm's way intentionally. Yeah, you would have done that. And I think, honestly, my children would have been without a dad because I was that reckless and I was that I equated that with like manhood or, you know, I mean, it's just that. And so I would have done the stupidest shit trying to prove to myself that I was worthy of wearing, you know, an airborne badge or something.

17:46 Yeah. Yeah. And so really life worked out the way that it did. And I'm still sitting here and impacting people every day. And I don't think that that would have happened had I had I moved over. So the Air Force wasn't the military experience I wanted in a lot of ways, but as the experience I needed. Uh, such a great way to say it. And dude, you know, it's funny about that. I mean, first of all, you and I have never talked about this piece before, because we talked about the military, certainly. But, you know, before I joined, I was looking at, I technically... I signed papers twice. And the first time that I did it, I did it as a 97 Bravo, which is an Intel analyst for the army.

18:27 And before I did that, I was really close. I wanted to be an Apache pilot. And that's why I was like, oh my gosh. This would be incredible. But I didn't go that route. And funny enough, you know what? I actually had literally the opposite experience of you, but ended up in certain ways, like in exactly the same place when it was all over because... When I joined the Army, as you know, because I told this story when we were at the last event, I was able to get a job as a broadcast journalist. I won't go through that story, but when I got my medical discharge from the Army early, far earlier than I ever imagined it would happen, I remember just getting back and at first it was like, oh, happy to be home.

19:24 And then it took like, I don't know, it took like fucking three days and I was like, oh, let me back in. What is, what the fuck? You know, and the crazy thing was at that time, everything was popping off in Iraq at that time. And I had buddies that, you know, that had just shipped overseas. Yeah. And I started thinking I went through this period of time where I started thinking, like, I want to go back. And not only do I want to go back, like I'm physically able to go back and fight like, fuck this broadcast journalism shit. I want to I want to go go. And thankfully, they wouldn't let me.

20:07 Yeah. Because I was pretty damn serious about it. And I was even trying to, like, figure out loopholes and all the things. But the point is, at the end of the day, I landed in exactly the same spot that you did, which is that I believe as well, you know, that when, especially when we're willing to get out of the way, I think that oftentimes, man, we can, as human beings, we can force our hand. And God's like, okay. You know, that... you got free will, dude. If that's really what you want to go do have at it. But, uh, I think that when we're willing to listen and, uh, and, and kind of get quiet enough to, to, to hear the signals, you know, he's always pointing us in a certain direction.

20:50 And at the end of the day, I thank God that I didn't go do that as much as I have such deep respect for the men and women that have. you know, I wouldn't be able to impact the people that I'm impacting today, most likely had I gone and done that. So yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah. It's insane when you think about like, you know, every action has a consequence, every decision has a consequence. And when you start thinking through like, what would have been the end result of that decision? Like, I mean, I, I'm extremely grateful to be number one alive and number two, to have all my limbs. Um, you know, you and I have talked about, you know, the consequences serving for 20 years is, you know, as far as my, my physical struggles, but yeah, like I really believe I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be.

21:37 Um, yeah. I mean, ego didn't need any more buffing. Let's be honest. You're buff enough, dude. Uh, then, all right. So speaking of where you are today, I want to talk about when we get into leadership, during your time in the military... Tell me about one or two experiences that you had that you can look back on and go, damn, that really started to shape my view of leadership that you've got today. Okay. I'm not going to go into details necessarily just about respect for the P. I was in a situation where we had somebody that was in charge that ended up getting taken out and...

22:26 There were five people that were all the same rank under them. And all of us as airmen gravitated to one guy. And I remember thinking, why? Like, there were five people in the authority, but they didn't have the same respect and trust. And so it really started this whole, like, line of questioning for me of, like, why did we all go to him? And it wasn't, like, he wasn't the nicest person, if I'm being honest. But he had developed... credibility and trust with us and um that really that kind of started my whole like desire to understand leadership better like like why did we all go to him because we could have gone to anybody but we went to that guy um and i want to pause one second i want to ask a question how um How do you develop credibility and trust and have that in the absence of people liking you?

23:28 How did he do that? Like you may not have thought he was the most likable guy, but what was it that got him to earn your trust and gave him credibility? Oh man, you know, made me get chill bombs. People might disagree with me, but I'll tell you what it was for me. He set and held standards. He was consistent. He took the time to ask questions. Not lip service, but literally ask how we were. But he also knew the separation had to be between him and us.

24:08 He wasn't the he wasn't the sergeant that hung out with all the airmen and tried to get them to like him. Yeah. Tell you what, man, he sure earned our respect and our trust because we knew that in any given situation that guy was going to follow through with what he said. Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure we'll get into it a little bit later, but I have a phrase that I use when I do leadership coaching. It's if you love them, shove them. Shove stands for make people feel seen, heard, understood and valued. And I tell you what, man, when leaders do that, when people make, like when leaders make their people feel seen, heard, and understood, those people then feel valued. And value given almost always results in value received. You know, you go to a, you go to a restaurant or something, you get great customer service.

24:52 What do you want to do? You give them a better tip. You give them a five-star. Yeah. You refer to a propensity. Right. And so this guy. I'll never forget, man. Like, I walked in one day, and he goes, Roberts. I was like, yes, sir. I was like, yes, sir. And he's like, hey, dude, I just want you to know, dude, Brett Favre fucking sucks, bro. I was like, what? Like, I was like, how do you even know I was a Packer fan? But you knew Packer fan. He knew I was. And it, like, blew my mind because I was like, how do you know that? Like, because we never talked about it. But he had paid attention and he had listened. And so when he got his opportunity, he knew something about me. And it wasn't BS. He knew something that was really important to me. You know what I mean? And I just, I think...

25:34 You and I have talked a lot of times about my favorite movie, which is We Were Soldiers. Yeah. No, one of mine too. And Mel Gibson plays, you know, at the time Colonel Hal Moore, but Hal Moore wrote a book and a lot of people don't realize that it's called Hal Moore's Thoughts on Leadership. And he has a phrase where he said, if given the choice between being liked and respected, I choose respected every time. And people can, I think you can be both. Yeah. When you're liked and not respected. Okay. You're not a leader. That's right. Or if you're not liked and not respected and you're not a leader, you know what I mean? But I do think you can be both liked and respected. And he was both. He wasn't, he wasn't, he didn't abuse his position. He didn't abuse his authority, but he was also unafraid of it.

26:17 Yeah. And I think that's the key. Um, yeah. I completely agree with that. And someone, I mean, Hal Moore is a great example of somebody who led so intentionally. That guy was such a student, you know, of battle, of leadership. I mean, yeah, phenomenal example. Um, so that was, that was kind of one of the ones that, that, that you would use to, to say, kind of shaped your, your, your view on leadership. Yeah. What was it when, when you, when was kind of the first moment for you during your military career where you were elevated to a leadership position and it was like, oh shit, now I got to take this and actually put it into play myself.

27:10 Probably the first time was when I got promoted as staff sergeant because it became real and I, I knew I wasn't ready for it. And I got promoted very fast. Wow. And so it really caused me and I, dude, I made some significant mistakes. Um, you know, I think it's important to understand too. I don't. I don't come as a leadership coach because I feel like it's my right. I come as a leadership coach because I view it as a privilege. Like if, you know, and I can only do it dude, because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are dozens of people that bear the scars of my leadership.

27:54 And that's probably one of the most painful things that I have to say. Like, I know I broke people and dude, I broke people. out of humor. Well, let's get, let's give a little context here because when he says he broke people, the guy was a drill sergeant. So, uh, so yeah, but it wasn't even during that time, dude. Like I will find it funny even as a master sergeant to just to mess with people because I could, and it, you know, I think a lot of leaders step into that, that place, but, um, everything that I've learned about leadership and everything that I teach and coach on is, is a direct reflection of both my success, my successes, but also my failures.

28:41 Um, and with all humility, I can say I had moments. I was a great leader, but I did. I also had an equal amount of moments that I was an absolute shit show. And yeah, Everything from leading with ego to leading out of insecurity and over projecting, dude. Like, like, let's be honest, Ryan. Like, I mean, you've made several comments. Like, I'm not a small dude. But do you know where all the weightlifting and the tattoos are coming from? Where's that? Getting raped. Hmm. I was trying to create the image of somebody that nobody would want to fuck with again. And you know what? The same thing happened when I got my rooftop on my stripes. Yep. I tried to over project. And when I went from master sergeant to senior master sergeant, I went from leading airmen directly to just leading master sergeants who were leading airmen.

29:30 I failed drastically. Yeah. to continue to grow in my leadership acumen and skillset. I just winged it and it was catastrophic, bro. It was catastrophic for my, my career. Um, and, and people wouldn't look at it and be like, well, you failed, but I know, I know in my heart where I did. And so that was, that's probably the second part, man. Like, like it, it wasn't a success. It was more looking back at it. Now I recognized some areas. And I think you can learn as much from those as you can from the successes. You know what I mean? Oh, I would argue more maybe, you know, I think, I think it was Bill Gates that said success is a lousy teacher.

30:16 Right. It's, and it's really true. What do you think it was that, what do you think it was that got you to write the ship? Yeah. Like, you made these mistakes. You weren't leading as well as you could have. Why didn't you just continue down that path? And what interrupted that pattern? I got put in check by an investigation. Somebody wrote a complaint saying that I was a bully. And even though I don't believe I was a bully per se, I had moments I did bully people, I think. So I guess by definition, I was a bully. But... Why's he going to be such a dick?

30:59 I was under investigation for three months. And they interviewed 98 people before anybody was like, no, he can be pretty intense. And it came back unsustantiated, like, no, he's not a bully. But what it did for me was those three months, dude, were so important in terms of my own personal reflection of, like, how did I end up here? Yep. And it kind of shone a light on me, like... And for me of like, if I was doing things the right way, this wouldn't have happened. I must've been really close to the fucking line. You know what I mean? And that's where, that's where it kind of started. And then, um, when I retired, well, I'm trying to think how to do this.

31:44 The person I served under, the commander I served under at that time was probably my least favorite human being on earth besides Osama bin Laden. So, like, that's how much I despise this guy, right? So he and I were diametrically opposite in every way possible. And I remember thinking to myself, if this, like, this is not leadership. Like, this is nonsense. And so it really... Not that I was better than him. I was very different than him. But watching how he acted in his place of authority... was so revolting to me that it really started my thought process. I'm like, what is so bad about this and why do I hate it so much?

32:26 Because I was under it, you know what I mean? So I was suffering under it. And I've always said, Ryan, it's rarely the bad leader that pays the price for his bad leadership. It's almost always the people that are right. That's right. So that's kind of, I don't know, does that answer your question? Yeah, no, it's a great answer to the question. And I think that those moments... You know, this is where I truly believe one of the reasons I'm so glad that you're out here giving your gift to the world at this point is that I think that there are two types of people. There are the types of people that see and hear that kind of stuff. And all they can do is see the face value of it.

33:07 And, uh, and, and, you know, it's an external thing. Somebody's doing something to me. Um, you know, now I'm, I'm pissed and all they want to do is just go talk about what a, you know, what an asshole, you know, this person was, um, But then there's the other type of person who's capable of going, man, I don't love this. Why? What is going on here that I don't love? And how could I use that better? And the reason that I resonate so much with it, man, is that I don't know why, but I have been that way about leadership since I was a kid. Since as long as I can remember, I've paid super close attention to the people that, you were leading me in any capacity, whether that be on a sports team or working in restaurants or in corporate before I became an entrepreneur, all of that kind of stuff.

34:06 And I just think that there's such magic in having the willingness to draw the lessons, especially from the shitty situations, because... Because those become the things that make you go, oh, now I see. This is why I can't do it. And I want to show other people why this isn't the way to do it. That's why I've always loved this thing. Like a mirror doesn't judge you. It just is a reflection of what it is. And so when you see a situation and it mirrors for you, wow, this is what I did or this is what I'm doing. I mean, you have an opportunity at that moment to get down on yourself and get depressed and just cry about it.

34:51 Or you can look at it and go, wow, I need to be better. And more than that, my people need better than this shit. And so I would like to think I chose that path. I mean, just like any other crusty old senior non-commissioned officer. Right. I had I had my like I always viewed myself not as how more and we were soldiers. I was more right. Like, yeah, I was the crusty dude that that was there to build up my commander. um, and to enforce discipline and standards. But I don't know if you can see it behind me, that sword. Yeah. Oh yeah. You know, that was a gift from my airman. Um, and they got it engraved with my name and they wrote me a citation when I retired. Um, um, And that was the validation I needed that, like, I wasn't perfect, but when I made the choice to start changing things and to change me and to be a better leader, I think it really resonated with my people.

35:46 And so that was the important part. Yeah, I love that. So when you retired from the military, what rank did you retire with? I was at EA to senior master sergeant. Senior master sergeant. Okay, man. So when you retired from the military, why in God's name did you choose to go into... Coaching, training, et cetera. Why? Well, so first I went into insurance sales. And I was really good at life insurance. We lost our son in our home and everything. So insurance was actually a natural fit for me as far as being able to relay to people the importance of it.

36:28 But it didn't fulfill me. That was just about money. Yeah, sure. And so I knew... between watching my parents live a life of service as missionaries to my own life of service, dude, like, I just believe we were sent to this earth for more than money. And so, yeah, I recognized I needed more. Um, and so life coaching was something I'd heard about and I'd never really investigated and I don't look like a life coach at all. So, um, it was, it was intriguing to me. Um, I've, you know, a lot due to empire. Like you guys have really helped me narrow in on what is, what is it that I want to do?

37:08 And it's less about life coaching and more about leadership coaching. Yeah. But for me, my favorite part of being a drill sergeant was not the yelling. I mean, you know, I think I told you my nickname was the soul reaper, like for a reason, like I was, I was really good at that job, but it wasn't about the yelling. It was about the transformation that you watched happen. Yeah. For a week. And graduation and to have, you know, to have mothers come up and give me a hug and be like, that's the first time he's ever said anything respectful to me or to see fathers looking at their daughters. Yeah. Like absolute badasses. Like, you know what I mean? And like when you watch them graduate, dude, and you're like, I created that. Like that was, that was such a cool sea wish.

37:50 Yeah, really. I wanted to replicate that in a lot of ways. And dude, I'll tell you this right now. When I can get on stage or in front of people or even in one-on-one conversations and you are able to, you're able to communicate something to someone who's in a position of leadership and you watch the light bulb come on and they're like, oh my God. Like, yeah, that's about as close as it gets to me. You know what I mean? Like that's where you go home and you're like, this was all worth it. I would do this every day for the rest of my life. Like those effects are, he's creating new leaders and those leaders are creating leaders.

38:31 And so Josh is attacking legacy doesn't stop with one client. It can, it can go forever. So yeah, that's it. That's where it comes from, man. Like I just, I love watching transformation happen. So. You know, I, I, I, it, it is honestly, it is like the, it is the ultimate drug at the end of the day. And, and it, and it's the best kind because, you know, it, it, it actually does a body good and a soul good, right? Then, then the opposite. And I, you know, you, you mentioned, um, and, and thank you, not that you needed to mention us, but you mentioned us.

39:13 is that you are somebody that I have seen, you know, you've not just displayed courage in terms of your service and things of that nature and the way that you've, you know, taken care of and led your family. But, dude, you know, you have displayed so much courage in this mission that you're on right now. I remember, I will, you guys... The very first time that Josh and I met, he literally told me he thought we were full of shit. Swear to God. I think you guys are full of shit, but I'm going to hang out here at this event and we'll fucking see.

39:57 That's exactly what happened. That's exactly what happened. Oh, like, my name is Joshua Roberts. I'm pretty sure you guys are full of shit, but you have two days to convince me otherwise. You know what, though? What I love is that you by the end of that event, you you and I'll always remember this moment. You know, you're you literally just shaking while you're handing me your credit card to, you know, to to sign up for the mastermind. And since that moment, one of the things that I really want to give you a shout out for is that. You have consistently looked at moments that feel big or uncertain or scary maybe, you know, doing things that you've never done before in your life, putting yourself in situations that you don't have to put yourself in.

40:51 And you're consistently willing to embrace discomfort. And I'm just curious. Yeah. Why do you think you're able to do that? Because that is not just a mark of somebody who's going to be fantastic as a coach and in the business world. That is the mark of a great leader, I believe, as well. And I'm curious what your take is on how you cultivated that skill. Oof. Well, first... When I was shaking handing you my credit card, like I want to put that in perspective. When I lost my house and everything I own, I had to put almost $90,000 on credit cards.

41:32 Because we didn't have the right insurance. Yeah. So that wasn't just me handing you a credit card. That was me going, I need this to work. Like there was more to it. It wasn't. Here's my price that I'm willing to pay. I was already maxed out, dude. Like I was already, you know, I mean, debt was scary to me because I decurred for much of it. That's probably my number one failure as a provider for my family was not having the proper insurance. And. I knew in that moment that. I was at a place of this has to work or I have to give it up.

42:13 And I've told you guys repeatedly, I never saved my business. But realistically speaking, you guys saved... You saved your business because you did the fucking work. No, you guys saved my life, man. I was in such a shitty mindset. I was in such a place of... I didn't trust myself. I didn't trust... I didn't trust that what I was doing was going to work. And in two days, because you guys just continually offered value with no sales pitches, it was just, you were there to give value. And bro, it like, it lit a fire. You know, I'll never forget listening to Mike do his spreadsheet and I wanted to die.

42:55 I was like, what are we talking about? Sorry, Mike. Oh, dude, it was so bad. And it was so good because I recognize all it did was highlight for me. I don't know shit about running a business. Yeah. And so it really it highlighted for me like. There comes a moment in combat, dude, where. You either go or you don't. Yeah. And like, I'm telling you this right now, and I've seen it in person. The guys that go, the ladies that go are rarely the people you think will. I believe that. Dudes that look like me will climb under a bed and hide. And some of the nerdiest looking people with the biggest hearts will charge in the face of danger.

43:37 And I've watched it over and over. And I think for once in my life, bro, I wanted to take control. Yeah. And I wanted to say, no, fuck this. I'm doing this. And it was my first opportunity. I mean, if you think about the way I grew up and even the life that I lived, I never really had a whole lot of choices. Yeah. And this was a choice that I got to make. Yeah. And I think everything in my life. of dying. And by that, I mean both physically, but I also mean, dude, like, I'm not afraid to start over.

44:19 And like, if this shit doesn't work, I'll find a way. Um, and then, yeah, that's where like, I get asked to speak on resilience pretty often. And you know, the, the air force will have resilience days. And that's like, it's ability to bounce back from a bad situation. You know, I did like, you don't get down. You don't bounce back from getting raped or you don't bounce back from losing a child. It is about getting out of bed. And my resilience journey starts every fucking day, dude, by getting out of bed and making a decision. Am I going to go to the tunnel? And swing or not. And dude, I go pick up my pickaxe and I go to this tunnel that I've been tunneling through and I swing. And some days I go this far because I hit granite.

45:01 And some days I go this far because I hit limestone. But either way, I clean out the rubble and I come back tomorrow and I keep swinging. Because you know what? I have three incredible children that deserve to have a father who is whole and well and present. You know, and that's where... I think I realized that if I truly want to make the kind of impact on this world that I feel I was called to make, I have to do the work to put myself in a position to do it. Yes. You can't. The days of standing on a soapbox. In a city square, they don't... I mean, people still do it, but it's not as effective as it used to be. I agree. These days, you have to learn how to build a business, dude.

45:42 You have to learn how to do the work and put the pieces in place. You have to learn the marketing. You have to learn the sales. You have to learn that because it's a saturated market. And so to stand out from other people, you've got to show people that my message is worth listening to. Yep. And so that's... I mean, I guess to summarize all of it, man, like sometimes... When the bullets are flying, you just have to make a decision. Am I going to stay here or am I going to go? That's right. Yeah. I'll tell you what, brother. Like when you go and you live through it, It's unlike any other feeling in the world. But I'll tell you, the other thing is I've met people that stayed behind the wall.

46:22 Oh, yeah. And they had to live with that regret for the rest of their life. That's exactly right. Man, that's so well said. You know, I've had a really close friend over the last several years who's significantly older than me. Very, very wise. And one of the biggest fucking badasses on the face of the planet. You would love this dude. He was... Army went special forces. He was a police chief for a long time. Did crazy ass shit like, you know, with speaking of cartels in Mexico, like Sicario down in those tunnels. Fuck. Um, but he has this, you know, he, he, and he's not the only one who has the saying, but man, he's just tell me over and over and over and over again, Ryan, we run towards the sound of battle, not away from it.

47:09 And he just say it over and over and over again. He just send me a random text message, Ryan, stay in the fight today, Ryan, stay in the fight today, you know? And I think that that decision was. Two decisions. One, to just get up and do it again. Like, I don't give I don't care what's going to happen today, how far I get. I'm just going to get up and I'm going to do it again. And and then to take it one step further. And when you face adversity and, you know, or an uncertain situation or something that you've never seen before. You run towards it, not away from it. I think that makes, honestly, dude, for whatever time that we have here, I think the more of those types of decisions that any of us can make, I think that makes for a great life as opposed to one that's filled with regret.

47:58 With the couple minutes that we've got left here, man, speaking of your message in the world, I want to talk about the book for a second. Your book is called Leadership Level Up, Seven Essential Traits, to become a true kick ass leader. Um, what inspired you to write this book in the first place? Oh, it made me emotional. Um, my son, my son is in the Navy and he's serving on an aircraft carrier, you know, right now in the straight of hormones and, uh, I remember the surreal feeling of watching my son raise his right hand and say the same oath that I said.

48:47 And it. It made me want to help. He's on his own journey. And I'm so proud of him that he chose the Navy because, you know, he did his own thing. A lot of people are like, why didn't he go on the Air Force? Because he didn't fucking want to go on the Air Force. He wanted to go on the Navy. And every service needs good men. And I'll tell you what, they got a good one. My son. And I just remember thinking, how can I help? And so I wrote that book. for him. Like, like what did, what would I wish that I would have known when I first started leading people, when I started providing people. And so that's why I try to write it, Ryan, at a level that anybody could read it and understand easily.

49:27 I try to write it in the same vernacular that I use when I speak. Like I've, I've heard so many people tell me when they write it, they're like, I can literally hear your voice too. Like, um, and I, I wrote it, completely authentically. Like, like I had a lady ask me, Hey, could you edit it and take the swear words out? No, I can't. And I'll tell you why, because that's not me, right? That's not me. And I'm sorry if it offended, but not every book is for everyone. But bottom line, dude, when I say everybody wants to be a gangster, it's time to do a gangster shit. Yep. I mean it. I mean it. Like it's not gangster stuff. It's gangster shit, dude. Like what, what is the shit?

50:11 That is hard about leadership because I'll tell you this. Nobody needs a great leader when things are easy. That's right. Right. You need a great leader when things are going to hell and you need a great leader when people don't know where else to turn. And in that moment, nobody goes, this stuff is really bad. No, people go, this is fucking shitty right now. So I wrote the book to appeal to the emotions of. of a 22 year old who's serving aboard a floating city in the middle of the ocean and needed something to encourage him on how he can better relate to treat and care for his sailors. And if that resonates with business people, great. But even if it doesn't, I don't really care because at the end of the day, I wrote that book and I dedicated it to my son, Ethan.

50:55 And if he's the only person to ever read it, I don't really care because I got a text message and I won't tell you what he said because it's between him and I but at the end of the day dude like reading that text message made all the effort worth it yeah it took to write that book I think that those are the best books written to one person. And I want to just say this, man. I'm totally going to out myself. I have a pile of shame right now of books that I have yet to finish. And yours is one of them. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to like bullshit you. Uh, but, uh, I, I, I will make certain that I read it before we see each other next.

51:40 And I want to just say also, you may have written this for a 22 year old, but you know, there are a whole lot of other people that are in far different places in their lives that have given you unbelievable compliments on this book. So that may have been, you know, the intention initially, but it's clearly impacted a lot of people in the business world, you know, in your personal life. I know a lot of people at Empire that have read the book, clients and staff and everybody. I mean, everybody said it's fucking incredible. So I appreciate that. I just want to honor you, though, because, you know, as we kind of wrap up here, brother, first of all, if you're listening to this right now, make sure to go get the book.

52:23 We'll drop the Amazon link in the show notes and in the YouTube. Once again, it's leadership level up seven essential traits to become a true kickass leader. But man, I just want to honor you for the way that you show up, honestly. And I mean that in every way possible. You know, you are starting to participate with some of the cool, super cool things that we're doing internally at Empire. You've led a couple of our mastermind calls. You're going to be participating in our leadership program that we are launching this year. And I'm so excited for that. But I just want to reflect back to you that, man, I'm going to be a part of the You have the way you show up is it.

53:13 You show who you are by the way that you show up in everything that you do. And I mean that both professionally watching you from, you know, up close and afar in terms of what you're doing in your business. And and I mean that as a friend. you know, you are a stellar human being. And I'm beyond proud of what you've created and you're just fucking getting started. And I'm most excited for the people that you are going to impact in this world because the most unselfish thing that you've done in your entire life was to do what you're doing right now.

53:54 and giving your gifts to the world. So I want to honor you for that, man. Thank you for today. This was a fucking awesome conversation. I loved it. I feel like we could do another hour. I always get excited to talk to you. But, Van, this was so awesome. Thank you for being here, brother, and thank you for everything that you do. Oh, I appreciate it. And for those of you out there listening, you know, simple three questions. Why should somebody follow you, which speaks to your credibility? Why would somebody follow you, which speaks to your ability to create care and connection? And where are you leading them to? Because if you don't know the answer to that question, you should start leading yourself first, and then you can lead other people.

54:34 That's a great way to end the episode. We're just going to be done. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Path to Mastery podcast. Until next time, take care. Yeah, buddy. Thanks for listening to the Path to Mastery podcast. If you got value from this, leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode. And if you know another entrepreneur who needs to hear this, do us a solid and send it their way. We'll catch you next time on the Path to Mastery podcast.