The Power of Better Questions: Life-Changing Communication with Marcus Sheridan

0:01 Welcome to The Coaching Equation brought to you by Empire Partners and hosted by Ryan Lang and Brooke Bishop. Our mission is to help you build a profitable and impactful coaching business by cutting through the noise and all the expert advice to deliver tried and true actionable insights that you can deploy in your business today. Each week, we bring on expert guests, unveil cutting edge tactics and strategies, and share the secrets and stories that we've gathered from working with the most successful coaching companies on earth. Welcome back to the Coaching Equation Podcast.

0:42 I'm your host, Ryan Lang, CEO and co-founder of Empire Partners. And a special guest on the show today, Marcus Sheridan is with me. And you're going to want to buckle up with this episode because, look, Marcus and I are both... So passionate about sales, about communication, about asking better questions. And this guy is an absolute powerhouse. To be honest with you, this was a personal masterclass for me. Selfishly, I almost felt bad recording this episode. It was so good. Marcus is a globally recognized communication expert. He's a keynote speaker, bestselling author, who specializes in transformational communication.

1:25 With over two decades of experience in sales, leadership, marketing, AI, personal development, and trust building, Marcus has helped businesses revolutionize their approach to transparency and engagement. His bestselling book, They Ask, You Answer, has transformed industries. And he's shared stages with the thought leaders like Simon Sinek, delivering impactful insights on trust, communication, and business growth. Let's get into it. This is Episode 52 of the Coaching Equation Podcast. Welcome back to the Coaching Equation podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Lang, CEO and co-founder of Empire Partners. And Brooke Bishop not with me today. I've got an amazing guest, Marcus Sheridan, in studio with me today.

2:09 Good to see you, man. Ryan, great to be with you, bud. I think we're going to have just one of those conversations today that people are like, you know what? I actually got something from that that I can apply tonight, which is always the goal. You know what I mean? Yep. That is the hope from this, my man. And implementation with expediency is always a good thing. I was really excited to have you on, Marcus, because of the fact that you've got such... strong, deep frameworks in the world of communication. And it's something that we need in our business, we need in personal lives, as we're out there doing things like trying to attract clients, we need it as we're trying to have good, strong conversations internally with team members, we need it.

3:00 It's absolutely vital. And I think that it's something that No, we do not. You know, it's crazy. Like if you look at some of the stats, just generally speaking, if you talk to most managers and you ask them, did you ever have a specific training or trainings on how to give the perfect one-on-one? That included role plays. 99% are going to say no. So it's like we send these managers off to have these critical conversations with team members, yet they've never been trained on the art of a one-on-one.

3:44 If you ask most leaders, have you ever been trained on how to deliver the perfect meeting with the perfect energy every time with your team? Most will say, no, I just kind of picked it up on the fly. If you talk to most sales teams and you say to them, no, How often do you do role play trainings per year? Most, over 95% will say that they do not do it once a month. And so it's crazy, man. For some reason, we just expect everybody to pick up the skill of communication. The only way that you get great at it is by actually practicing it and putting yourself in that position.

4:26 Amen to that, 100%. And I'm curious, I would love to dive in on some of these strategies and frameworks that we can use to start implementing and start practicing these things ASAP. Before we do, though, what was it for you? I'd really love to know, what was it for you that got you so honed in on communication in particular? Why? What happened? I'm going to go way back for a couple of stories here, if that's already you, Ryan. Please. Just because I think this is relevant to our conversation today. I think really the first time I knew that for some reason I communicated differently than others was...

5:12 One day, this was in high school, our baseball team, and I was on the baseball team, we had just finished up practice. And we decided the girls were still practicing. The girls softball team was still practicing. So like, you know, typical guys, we said, let's go, you know, finish watching the girls practice. You're just going to hang out over there. They had the championship game the next day, the girls did. And so it was their biggest game of the season. And after they were done with their practice, they had gathered together in a huddle. They saw us standing to the side. And the captain of their team said, Hey, Marcus, why don't you come out here and give us a motivational talk for tomorrow?

5:56 I was like so thrown off by that. Not like in the moment, but later on I thought about it. Like, what? that interesting? Like not in an arrogant way. Like why, why did she ask me? Right. And so that started, that started it. Well, let me fast forward a couple of years. Let's, I was a missionary for my church in Chile. All right. I didn't speak Spanish very well at all. And I had been in Chile for a couple of years. And this story might sound like it's religious at first. It's not. So if you're listening to this, like, just relax. It has a point to communication, I promise.

6:38 So what happened was, is I had a companion at the time, a fellow missionary who was from Chile. So he spoke the native language. And we had set up what is called a baptismal service. for someone that was going to be joining the church. And this person was really known in the community. And she had invited a whole bunch of people. So we were going to have this huge ceremony with a bunch of people that were not members of our church. They were going to come and watch this baptism. So it was a really, really big deal. And there was also two other female missionaries locally, same age as me, like 20 years old.

7:22 They had invited a whole bunch of people as well. This was a big deal, big deal. So. So in order to have this baptism, you have it in a font and you have to fill up the font. In Chile, the water's a little bit slower. Takes about three hours to fill up the font with hot water. So we go to the place where we're going to have the service three hours beforehand. We fill it up. And... We essentially close the font area and then we just wait for people to show up. And so the evening comes and we have a ton of people. I mean, there's like over a hundred people from the town. Wow. And probably like 70 of these people are not members of the church. So it's a really big deal for us missionaries, right?

8:03 It's like, this is a great experience. And so... we start the ceremony and then we proceed to the baptismal font. And that's closed off. And so we open it up in order to be able to see the baptism. Okay. And as soon as we open up the font, my companion and I are opening the doors to it. And I got all these people, you know, watching the fonts, empty fonts, empty, empty. And we look at each other like, oh, my goodness, how did this happen? Somebody had pulled the plug on the font and now this person can't get baptized in the water. And it's just like a really bad moment. And keep in mind, there was a girl there from one of the missionaries, the two females.

8:48 One was from Argentina. One was from Chile. And the guy I was with was from Chile. They all spoke the language. I sucked at the language, right? I had not learned Spanish growing up. I'd only been out in, in, in like in Chile for like two months. So I said, it was terrible. And in this moment, they all looked at me like, what are you going to do about this, Marcus? And it was like this weird feeling came over me. And I was like, all right, I'll, I'll take care of this. So I called everybody that was in. these hundred people, I called them back into what was like the chapel area. And I said, we got to go ahead and fill this up.

9:28 We're going to fill it up with cold water. It's going to take us about 45 minutes, but we're just going to have a conversation between now and then. And so I got everybody together and I asked a question in Spanish. It's probably pretty clunky, but I asked a question in Spanish and someone answered the question in the crowd. And, I asked a follow-up question and then someone else answered and then someone else answered. And then suddenly something just settled on the room and there was like this really powerful feeling of just like openness, vulnerability, and all these people, these members and non-members of the church were like sharing with each other.

10:11 Yeah. And before I knew it, my companion that I was with was waving to me in the back because the font was full. 45 minutes had gone on, had passed by just like that in a blink. We had the baptism, really successful. And many of the people that watched ended up joining the church as well. So why am I sharing the story? Well, that night, the lady that we were staying with, just a nice Chilean lady, she says to me, you know, Marcus, I've heard you speak. You're not a very good speaker at all of the language. But something, she said, something happened tonight and you dominated the language.

10:51 And really what it was is I understood how to ask the right questions. And for 45 minutes, I didn't teach, but everybody in the room taught themselves. I just facilitated. I love that. That's when I knew that questions had a power to them. And it became almost like my life's mission to learn the art of the perfect question. And that's a quest I've been on since then. Wow, man. Number one, that's an absolutely beautiful, powerful story.

11:31 And I think that generally speaking, this is something that we're obsessed with. I am absolutely obsessed with asking people. more questions, better questions, and certainly spending a lot more time asking questions than we are making statements about things. It's funny. So we think about communication. And so often we're thinking about what we're going to go tell somebody and droning on and on. That's unbelievably powerful. One of the things that I want to reflect back to you and for the I have no doubt that there was something for you.

12:13 The way that you speak and the way that you connect with others, Marcus, is very calming and intentional. And you can tell that you care. about the person that you're speaking with. And you can also tell that, again, there's intention behind your words. Is that something for you? Because this is something as a person that coaches individual sales reps, business owners, sales teams consistently... we talk a lot about the ability to really get into a caring tone, especially during difficult times of conversation and not everybody's built that way.

12:54 Was that something for you that came naturally because it, it now I, I mean, I'm looking at you now and just listening to you speak and I can feel it in you. Did that come naturally for you or did you have to learn it? Or was it something that was an aha? Like, wow, I feel like I kind of have a gift here. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you noticing that and asking the question. I recall a moment when I was, I think I was in fifth grade and I was sitting next to this kid in class. His name was Mack. And Mack was struggling with his math. Yeah.

13:34 And I remember sitting there next to him and he was struggling with a problem and the teacher was talking to him. And the teacher was talking to him like Mac could understand what she was saying. But I could see that Mac did not understand what the teacher was saying. And as this like little kid, I was probably, I don't know, 10 or 11 as a fifth grader. I was sitting there like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Mac doesn't understand what you're saying right now. He might be nodding his head, but he's not in his head because he's too embarrassed to admit that he does not understand. Yet the teacher essentially just said, okay, all that makes sense. Mac was like, uh-huh, and went on. And I thought to myself, what a tragedy.

14:15 Like, what a tragedy. And it was like in that moment, it was like this thing to me where from an early age, I could see that miscommunication was a very big problem if you're not truly focused on your audience, on your listener. And that in many ways has been my obsession. You know, a lot of people know me as a sales and marketing guy because I wrote a book called They Ask, You Answer. and a new one called Endless Customers. But if you look at sales, if you look at marketing, if you look at leadership, they all have the same thing in common, which is how do you communicate in a way to connect deeply with your audience, whatever that audience is.

15:01 And what I've found over the years, and somebody once said this, and it really resonated with me because it just makes so much sense. It sounds strong at first, but it's so true, which is it's dumb not to dumb it down. It's dumb not to dumb it down. It's dumb not to dumb it down. At first I heard that and I was like, it's dumb not to dumb it down. But then I really realized the point of it. It's like your job as a pod host, my job as a, let's call it a subject matter expert here today. The goal should never be to impress our audience. Yep. or to sound smart for our audience.

15:42 So many communicators, when I say communicators, I'm talking about leaders. I'm talking about speakers. I'm talking about sales and marketing leaders. All the same, all the same. They unintentionally, subconsciously are trying to prove they belong on the stage. Yep. Yep. And because of this, they actually put a distance between themselves and the audience. It's a big problem. And the number one bit of feedback I give to folks, especially speakers, is you're trying to appear smart. And they're always like, no, I'm not.

16:24 I know you don't see it, but that's exactly what's happening here. And because you're trying to prove that you belong on the stage, you're actually losing the trust and authority that you seek. Wow. Say that one more time. And because they're trying to prove they belong on the stage and all this is happening subconsciously. They end up losing the trust and the authority that they seek. And we would say stage, by the way. That stage could be, you could just be a business coach having a one-on-one with a client.

17:09 Same exact principle. It doesn't change. 100%. I want to agree with you so wholeheartedly. One of the things that we see, and speaking of sales, one of the things that we see very often, Marcus, is as people are crafting their sales script, they spend the majority of the time talking about their solution. And we're all proud of it, by the way, right? Oh, yeah. We spend our lives figuring things out and learning things the hard way and our secret sauce and all of the things. And we want to go out and tell everybody about it. And we try to do it in such detail that it ends up actually turning the customer or the client in the opposite direction.

17:54 Instead of, like you said, dumbing it down, making it relatable. Right. And that's really where we move people, isn't it? Where when we can, when they can relate to us, not when they're like, wow, that guy's so smart. Yeah, right. It's like the person that says, you know, after you, it's like you meet somebody and you have a chat for someone. you know, 15 minutes or an hour, whatever it is. And let's say the person you were talking to, they spoke 90% of the time, but they'll tell their friends, my goodness, that person was such a good, like conversationalist. And it happens because you understood how to get them to open up. One of the KPIs I usually set with sales teams is how often do you hear the question, okay.

18:42 or excuse me, hear the statement, no one has ever asked me that question before. It's such a compliment to hear that. Because whatever comes next, like when the answer, they're going to have a light bulb moment. They're going to have an aha moment. That is like your core job. if you wanna make an impact on the world, is to create light bulb moments and those people around you, aha moments. And the way that you know you've created an aha or a light bulb moment is when someone says something like this, come to think of it, or, you know what, I think I've got it.

19:23 Or, hmm, now that you mention it, they're all the same thing. All the same thing, is there's a light bulb that is coming on. And so, when I have a sales meeting, I literally ask, how many of you heard this week? No one has ever asked me that before. And then the followup for the ones that raised their hand is what was the question that you asked? And let me tell you, those folks have the highest closing rate period because they're making deep, extraordinary connections with their audience in this case, the prospect. But again, it's the same thing.

20:04 If you're a great leader, you're, you should consistently have people telling you, no one's ever asked me that before. And like, no boss has ever, I've never even thought about that, right? Which then, not to ramble too much, as you know, Ryan, but like, I know, by the way, I'm preaching to the choir with everything I'm saying right now. This is, I'm just loving this, man. You keep going. When it comes to discovery, A lot of people think the most important question is why? Like just asking many whys, which to a degree, that is very, very true. Yeah. But I would argue the most important discovery question that you can ask a child, that you can ask a loved one, a teammate, a prospect is, but if you had to give an answer, what would it be?

20:58 Because here's why this is so powerful. When you learn the art of deep discovery, which the greatest of salespeople have and the greatest of leaders have and the greatest of parents have and the greatest of friends have. Yes. When you learn the art of deep discovery, you're asking questions that are so very different. than what the person has heard before or considered before, that the natural reaction is to walk around the answer and to not give an answer. Case in point. And let me give a very basic question that is a standard for sales.

21:41 So a standard one, let's say you're a business coach and you say to a person, what is the biggest... struggle you're having in your personal life because of your business right now? It's a basic question, right? Person oftentimes will say, I'm having a bunch. I'm stressed out. I'm having a tough time with my family. I mean, I could go on and on. There's just so many out there. You see, what you just got was not an answer. What you got was a blanket, but it's not an answer. which is why you have to come back and say, understand there's a lot here.

22:22 But if you had to choose one of those, one thing that is the biggest issue in your personal life right now, because of your business, what is it? Now they're going to stop. Now they're going to think, they're going to look up, and they're going to say, well, if I had to say just one, You see, what's happening, light bulbs coming on. Yes. Aha moment is happening. Yes. And they're about to learn something about themselves. And that is what makes someone extraordinary is when they can cause such a deep reflection that they just induce these light bulb moments constantly.

23:07 So good, man. And you're, you know, you're describing what I like to call, you know, peeling the onion. Yeah. Most, most people stop at that outer layer. And there is so much more underneath of that. And peeling the onion. One of the things that I really want to highlight as you're listening to this right now is that notice... And Marcus just beautifully, artfully displayed how to get to the center of the Tootsie Pops, so to speak, without telling someone. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions, Marcus. You talk about, I love that you brought up the words, you know, kind of discovering something about themselves and having that light bulb moment because moments of self-discovery are the moments that we remember.

23:58 And more often than not, we have a false belief that, and especially as coaches, what we want to do is we see it. We know. We know what's in there. We know. And we want to tell you. But the self-discovery doesn't come when we tell it to someone. It comes when we artfully continue to ask the questions that cause them to come to the realization on their own. So, so good. Yeah, this is great. We call what you just described. So I have a book coming out on this next year. I've had a company that does this today, but you really can only launch one book a year.

24:41 My problem is I got too many books up here. And I've actually already written this book. And it's written as a business fable. And I think it'll be my best work when it comes out. But what you just described is what in this book. system of communication. We call the pathfinder, the pathfinder. And everyone's goal, ideally, as a communicator, as a parent, loved one, teammate, is to become a pathfinder. What does a pathfinder do? A pathfinder... is the one that understands that it's not their job to give the answer. It's their job to ask the perfect question or series of questions that allows the brain to suddenly identify, without even realizing it, new paths that, whereby they can discover the answer for themselves.

25:31 Traditionally, from a historical perspective, the pathfinders were the ones that went ahead of the discoverers. So you have the big explorers, but there was chunks where a pathfinder would go ahead and they would find different paths or routes that they would go ahead. whereby the discoverer could do what they wanted to do. And so that's the ultimate form of facilitation for breakthroughs. So if you want to create breakthroughs for your audience, you have to become a pathfinder. The only way you become a pathfinder is you learn to ask the perfect series of questions. Now, what's interesting about this is, And if you're listening to this right now, let me take you through a quadrant, if I could.

26:13 Please. And we call this, there's a little activity, and I think we can probably do this audio, not just visually, but we call this the Pathfinder's Compass. And so if you drew a quadrant, which is basically you've got your X and Y axis, right? You've got an X and Y axis. So if you look at the left to right axis, all the way on one side, you've got telling and all the way on the right side, you've got asking. Okay, so you've got telling on one side, asking on the other side for your left to right axis on this quadrant. Okay. Now, if you're listening to this right now, I want you to think about when somebody comes to you with a problem, a need, an issue, especially let's say it's a teammate.

26:56 What percentage of the conversation is you asking versus what percentage is you telling? Now, what happens oftentimes, especially for people that think they're good at communicating, is... They think they ask a lot of questions. Usually they ask one. They get an answer, and then they start to go into recommendation mode. Okay. So that's the left to right axis. So if you're listening to this right now, draw on a sheet of paper, a left to right axis line, far left telling, far right asking, and put yourself on that scale. Now I want you to draw a center line down the middle, all the way down. Now we've got the true cross for the axis.

27:36 And on this vertical line, At the bottom, I want you to put you. At the top, I want you to put them. Okay? Now, here's where it gets really interesting. Generally speaking, in most conversations, there is a primary beneficiary that's intended. All right? Yep. Yep. Lots of times we don't realize it, but when we give someone advice, we're giving it because we want something. We are the primary beneficiary. Other times, if we do it the right way, they are the primary beneficiary. So put you them.

28:17 Now, here's where it gets interesting. That one's harder to identify, but try to mark yourself on that scale. And don't ever do it in the middle because it doesn't help you with these type of quadrants. Now, if you look at the upper left quadrant here, let's start with bottom left, better stated. The bottom left, this person tells people what to do. And it's usually all about them. They're not asking questions. They're telling. And they have an intended purpose and they're focused on their goals alone. We call this person the dictator. So the bottom left is the dictator. Now, let's move over to the right. This person asks a lot of questions, but they are the primary beneficiary.

29:02 Essentially, they're using questions as a means to manipulate the person into doing what they think should be done. We call this person the lawyer, the attorney. Essentially, they know how to engineer questions just right so that they're getting the outcomes that they desire. Let's go to the upper left now. The upper left, this person has the primary beneficiary is the audience. But the problem is they're not asking questions. They're telling. What do we call this person? We call them the instructor. Many coaches fall into this quadrant, the instructor, because the instructor has life wisdom and they're busy telling them what to do.

29:51 after they asked that first initial question, they have the, they really want the best for the person, but the problem is the person's not growing. And they're coming to them. They're getting answers. They're being essentially told instructively what to do. They're not growing because of it. Final person is the upper right. This person is asking questions deeper than anyone has ever asked before. And the primary beneficiary is the audience because, uh, In the process of answering these questions, they have grown. They've discovered the answer for themselves. They've taken ownership of it. We call this person the Pathfinder. That's the Pathfinder.

30:32 And you all want to end up in the upper right. It's where you want to be. Most people are not. The majority listening to this are actually the instructor. And then a lot of old school leaders, and this is, you know, lesser percentages, but you have your share of dictators and attorneys out there as well. All right. So those are the four quadrants. Those are the four quadrants. And what's interesting is sometimes you might be in your personal life, you might be a dictator, but when you are at work, you might be more of a pathfinder or an instructor. The idea though, is that, Anytime somebody comes to you with a problem, an issue, a concern, that you go on a journey with them to allow them to figure it out and own the thing.

31:17 The last thing I'll say about this before I finish my little rant, and thanks for the patience there on that one, Ryan, is every conversation, for the most part, when somebody has a need, a problem, ends with two words. You're right. The question is, who's the one saying you're right? Because if somebody, let's say a team member comes to you or a client comes to you with a question, a problem, a need, and you say, oh, yep, I know what's going on here. Here's exactly what you need to do because I've done this before myself. Trust me, I've been there, done that. So here's what you need to do. Boom, go do it. And they're like, you are so right, Ryan. I am so glad I came to you.

31:58 I knew, I just knew if I came to you, you would have the answer. Dude, you are always, you just always have the answers. Gosh, I just appreciate you so much. So grateful for you. Now, the problem is Ryan feels good. But what we've done is we've completely stunted the growth of the individual. They have not learned to solve the problem. And now who's the hero? Ryan's the hero. And Ryan has essentially instructed that person, whenever you have a problem, a need, an issue, a worry, you come to me and I'm pretty much the only one that can figure it out. Whereas the Pathfinder, Ryan, at the end of asking a series of questions, the audience member, whoever he's talking to, says, Ryan, man, you know what?

32:40 Here's what I think I should do. And Ryan's like, okay, tell me more. And like, well, I think I should do this. And Ryan says, all right, and then what? Well, and I think I should do this and this. And why do you think you should do that? Well, I think I should do that because of this and this and this. And if you do all those things, what's the impact gonna be on your life? Well, it's gonna completely change my life and here's how. And then Ryan's gonna say, you're right. And that's exactly what I would have recommended. You know what, you don't need me, you got this. That's leadership development 101. That's extremely rare. Extremely rare. Man, I love this framework. It's so simple. It's easy to remember.

33:21 And as you're just discussing each quadrant, I can literally picture people that I know in every one of these quadrants, how I've shown up in each one of these quadrants at some point or another. One thing that I would love to get from you on this is, You know, we, a lot of, I love what you're talking about here because it's so in line with so much of what we teach regarding sales. One of the things that I find, and I would love to hear your perspective on this, is that people don't look at this as something that they bring into their communication in general. They oftentimes... And this happens especially, I find, with solopreneurs who are primarily working on their own.

34:08 And then they bring on a team member or a few team members or something like that. And they get really good on their sales calls at asking wonderful questions, at truly being like a pathfinder for people on their sales calls. And then when they show up to lead their team members, they're the dictator. Right? Man, great observation, Ryan. Great observation. This is also why, sadly, as you've seen before, a lot of the best salespeople make the worst sales managers. Oh, so true. Because for some reason, all those wonderful attributes that they had to connect deeply with their prospect falls by the wayside.

34:54 when they are doing this with their team. And some of it comes from impatience. Some of it comes from pride. Like, man, I already got the system. I got it down. Trust me, just do this thing here. There's a lot of that. But man, it just, it's like, you can tell a great leader simply by one thing. How many other leaders do they produce? That's it. That's the big tell. This is why... Like, the greatest coaches of all time, they have what's called a coaching tree. Like, athletics-wise. Right? I think it was Steve Walsh of the 49ers who coached Joe Montana. If you look, like, he had some...

35:38 just stunning amount of coaches, head coaches, that eventually came from his tree. And you see that with some of the great ones. It's just they have this way. And that's why you can tell a really great CEO by how many great leaders come from that organization and then go on to do other things versus the CEOs that try to just... you know, like tamper them down, if you will. Sure. And prevent them from ever starting their own thing and prevent them from growing because they're coming from this place of scarcity, right?

36:18 Yep. Yeah. Yeah. You totally see that a lot. How, let's just say right now that we've got someone listening to this podcast that is going, hmm. Okay, I'm going to swallow hard, but I'm just realizing I do this. How do we, if we've started to get it down in one area, how do we get it to bleed into all of the other areas so that it just becomes a part of what we do and who we are? Yeah, man. So part of the answer is, yeah, gotta have reps and you gotta practice. Sad thing about most sales teams is they're busy practicing on their customers and not on themselves.

37:04 What a tragedy. Indeed. What a tragedy. Indeed. You should be doing role play training and we call them real role plays because we treat them as like they were real. Yep. You should be treating them as such. Now... then it's a matter of, well, what exercises can you do? If it's all right with you, Ryan, could we do maybe an exercise or two together to show the audience? You bet. Which, by the way, I know you have a whole ton and you probably have ones that are similar to this, but one of the ones that I teach folks, and this again applies to... every facet of your life, personally, professionally, sales, leadership, management, friends.

37:44 It's called the pushback pivot. All right. So the core principle behind the pushback pivot is what we call question first. One of the reasons why my communications training company is called the question first group is because our core pillar is question first. We always think in a question first mindset. We teach it from a sales perspective. We teach it from a leadership perspective. It's always question first. So in order to teach question first, there's different activities that you can, that you can do. And I'll show you a couple right now. So one of them is called the pushback pivot. The pushback pivot. So at different times in your life, you're going to get hit with friction, with a negative moment.

38:25 And the question is, how do you deal with it? Have you ever said to yourself, geez, I wish I would have known how to respond in that moment? Right. We've all said that many, many times. And usually when we say that, it's because somebody said something to us that really threw us off. So the pushback pivot is the ultimate answer for any one of those scenarios. And if you master this little skill that I'm about to show you, audience, you'll never flinch again. That's the idea, that you don't flinch. You're just always ready for whatever comes. The way the pushback pivot works is as follows. You hear the negative phrase that the person says and you isolate the specific negative word or words that they used.

39:05 You repeat those words and then you just ask them to explain. All right. Now there's different ways that you can ask them to explain, but to give an example of this from a sales perspective, the number one, uh, issue that salespeople oftentimes hear, even not always, but for many, it's the number one is, geez, I feel like you guys are too expensive or this quotes expensive, right? So the way to respond to that, well, first of all, how do most salespeople respond? Well, they immediately go in defensive mode and they start to explain, uh, Well, yeah, we might be more expensive, but let me explain some of the reasons why we're more expensive.

39:48 Justifying. They're going to justify. They're going to defend. All right. Which actually causes you, when you start defending, you lose authority. So you have to learn to stay with the questions. So if someone says to you, Um, and I'll let you say it like, Ryan, I want you to, uh, uh, do this. I just want you to, uh, say something like, you know, Marcus, I feel like you guys are so expensive. I'm just going to do the pushback pivot. All right. And then I'm going to show some other examples of the exact same principle. And then it gets like, it gets really fast after that. So go ahead. Yeah, Marcus, I got to tell you, man, it all sounds good, but I'm going to be totally honest. This is really expensive. Yeah, expensive.

40:29 I appreciate that. So when you say expensive, tell me more. No, that's it. By the way, that's it. That's it. So I took the keyword, which was expensive or really expensive. Either one would have worked. And I said, tell me more or tell me about that. Or anything along those lines. Problem is, when Ryan in this case says expensive, we don't know what really he means by that. That's right. He could mean 5%. He could mean 10%. He could just be testing me. He could think we're cheaper than everybody, but he just wants to see how far he can get me down. So I have not yet understood what he means by expensive.

41:09 So it's no different than, now let's flip it around, Ryan. All right. I'm going to do another one. I'm going to do it for you. And I want you to take the negative word or words, not the whole sentence, but just the negative, and just repeat those and then say something like, tell me more about that. Right. Got it. Yep. Yeah, Ryan, I thought today's sales meeting was a waste of time. Wow. A waste of time. Tell me more about that. That's it. Perfect. Nailed it from the jump, right? All right. So that's it. Now, of course, most people in that moment, they're going to be like, what are you talking about, man? Right? And they're just going to get pissed. Yep.

41:49 Whereas the great ones, they hold the line. It's like... Waste of time? Please tell me more. That's it. That's all you have to do. You know, and if you do this, suddenly you're going to see that you eliminate most arguments. Your partner, your spouse, your loved one says, I am so annoyed with your behavior recently. You're like... my behavior, please tell me, tell me more about that. That's it. That's it. Now, part of this too is you want to make sure your body, your face says, I'm ready to receive because a big part of this is what the face and the body says. But when you learn the pushback pivot, someone could say, oh my, you know, gosh, you're, you're, you know, you got an ugly nose.

42:31 You're like, ugly nose, please tell me more about that, man. Yeah. What's wild is if kids learn this, suddenly it eliminates a lot of bullying that happens. Oh, so true, yes. Because it defuses the situation very, very quickly. Right? Whereas we are so, so committed to defending. That's one of the biggest problems. So that's one way you can do it. Another way that you can really learn question first, there's so many different activities, is we call this the question only game. The question only game. And this is when you take a classic question, especially let's say in sales, a classic question that you might receive all the time. And the rule of the game is this, you're only allowed to use questions to answer it until you get to the point where you're allowed to say, and that's exactly what it is, okay?

43:21 So let's do an example really quick here, Ryan, and I will be the person that is, that is obviously like in the spotlight here. And I'm going to have you ask one that I've done before. So I'm going to be cheating, but it's still like will help the audience understand the game and how it's played. All right. So you're going to ask me the question, Marcus, what is content marketing? All right. I'm going to answer it, but I'm only going to answer it by using questions. as the answers. Okay. It'll, and then we're going to get to the point where I'm going to say, and that's exactly what it is. All right. You ready? By the way, if you're listening to this right now, Ryan had no idea this was coming.

44:03 He's never done this with me before. And so this is just a matter of if I ask the right questions, I'm going to be able to get to the point where I can say, and that's exactly what it is. Okay. So go ahead and ask me the question, Ryan, what is content marketing? Marcus, what is content marketing? Oh, I love this question, dude. So have you ever bought something and before you bought it, you just kept going back to a particular website about that thing over and over again? Has that ever happened to you? A hundred bazillion times. Yes. So what is it about those websites that make you go back again and again and again? I think it's that I land there and there's something instantly that tells me it's for me.

44:46 Something is hooking me, basically, that kind of keeps me interested. Yeah, perfect. And what are the things that they're talking about on those websites that the other websites maybe about that product or about that service or about that company, they're not talking about? What makes them different? I very quickly know what they do, who they do it for, and why it should matter to me. Perfect. And because they answer those questions and address those things and nobody else really does the same way, what is the emotion that you feel towards that company that you don't feel towards everybody else? Certainty. Certainty. And that certainty that you feel about that product, about that service, that's exactly what content marketing is.

45:31 Brilliant. Okay. So that's an example of the question only game. So you can do this. And I'm not saying that you're going to literally do it like that every time, but the great teachers, they learn how to answer everything in the form of a question if they want. So as a salesperson, somebody might, might like one of the questions that you might practice on is, so why should I choose your Or for, let's say somebody's a business coach and the person said, well, why would I even need a coach? Oh my goodness. That is a perfect question for the question only game because you can get to a point where literally you're able to say, and that's exactly why you would need a coach, right?

46:20 Because they have said it all because you asked the perfect set of questions. You know, what I love about this is that the practice in and of itself is a very anchoring and calming practice. Whereas I think so often when we get in these situations, we feel like we're knocked on our heels and we do the opposite. We fumble around. We're quickly trying to think on our toes and provide more information at the end of the day. And this is doing the opposite of that. Ryan, I know we're like getting close to the end, but there's this one story I have to share with you. Please. Because of all the moments in my life, this is the one that taught me the most about communication.

47:11 And before I tell you the story, let me just give you a very quick framework, if we can. So people oftentimes ask, So what makes the perfect question? And let's feel like it's hard to answer. Well, I would submit that there's what's called the three Ps of a perfect question. The three Ps of a perfect question. The first one is progress. The second one is purpose. And the third one is path. The three keys to a perfect question. So...

47:55 How do you know you're not following these? Well, if you ever ask a question and somebody says something like, I already told you that. It's because they're feeling like you're not making progress. If you ever ask somebody a question and they say, where are you going with this? It's because they feel like you're not making progress. Now, purpose. Purpose. Purpose is close to progress. Purpose is slightly different. Purpose, you know you're not following that because the receiver, the audience, wants to feel like there's a purpose to the question.

48:35 So the way that you know that you failed with the question is if they say, why did you just ask me that? See, most people have heard that before because they're not seeing a purpose. Why did you ask me that? Now, the third one, third P of a perfect question is path. Path is the most challenging. Path is when the person is allowed to immediately find the answer. Their brain understands quickly, okay, if I go down this path, lots of times... If you've ever heard someone respond to you by saying something like, I'm confused by the question, or I don't really know what you mean by that.

49:20 It means the question lacked clarity, i.e. path. It wasn't a clear path. So it's no different if I said to you, Ryan, what's your greatest memory versus what's your greatest memory as a child with your mother? The second one is so much better because I gave you a very clear path to go down that you could quickly find the thing. Whereas there's a million memories, but I gave you one specific path. Boom, you're able to go there. You might have to dig deep. It might be something you haven't thought about ever, but that is a perfect path. Okay, so progress, purpose, path. Now, I tell you that as a prelude to the story that I'm about to give you. All right. Now, Ryan, would you like me to put you on the spot?

50:02 Even though I know you're great at this, this activity is going to be simple as in like not complex, like easy to understand, but very hard. It's going to be a great test for you and for the audience. Are you up for it? Let's do it. Let's do it. Game on. I'm going to give you a scenario. It was a real scenario and it happened to me at an event. And the story I'm about to tell you at first, it might almost sound silly, like meant to be humor. It's not. It's actually very, very serious. So as I tell it, that's the context for which I'm bringing it to you. Okay. So here's what happened. I just got done speaking about marketing of all things in Dallas, Texas.

50:42 I was in a rush to get to the airport. In fact, I was worried I was gonna miss my flight. There was an Uber that was waiting for me outside already. I was packing up my bag and I was getting ready to literally just like quickly run out of the building, get in the Uber. As this is happening, as I'm like zipping up my bag, I see a gentleman probably in his forties. He starts walking up towards me with a very concerned look on his face. I knew there was something wrong with him. All right. Now, here's the moment that's serious, that it sounds at first silly, but it's serious. He says to me, Marcus, can I ask you a question?

51:22 I'm like, sure, bud. What's up? And then he says, I don't know how to say this the right way, but... My wife bites her nails incessantly. It's driving me crazy. I don't want it to drive me crazy. She's tried everything and she just don't, she like, she won't stop. And at this point, I don't know what to do. And I feel like it could cost me my marriage. What do you think I should do? Okay. Now that's the scenario that we've been given. We have less than a minute to resolve this issue.

52:03 And the only way we're going to resolve this issue is, like truly resolve it, is if we nail the first question. Now, my test here, and this is so, like, this is not easy, is... No one's ever gotten it, Ryan, by the way. Okay. My test here is what would you have asked? Now, I would tell you a lot of people like to ask the question, well, I would have said to him, do you love your wife? But let's analyze that for a second. If he had, would he have come up to me with that look on his face if he didn't love his wife?

52:51 Clearly he loved his wife. So if I say, do you love your wife? He's not going to understand the purpose of the question. He's not going to feel like we're making progress. He's going to get frustrated quickly. So, all right. Now, Ryan, I've given away one of the not correct answers. What is the question you would have asked? What about your wife biting her nails drives you crazy? Tell me more about that. Now, if you looked at his initial explanation to me, if you recall, he said, like, I don't want it to drive me crazy, but it's driving me crazy.

53:39 So if we ask him that, he's going to say, I don't know. I just, I, I just, I don't want it to bother me, but it bothers me. Once again, he's going to feel like we're not making progress. So we could ask that, but we just wasted 30 seconds and now we've got to go. So we've got to find the perfect question. Progress, purpose, path. So. because we're coming to the close here, I'll share with you the question that I asked. And to this day, I've often thought about where it came from. Well, I know where it came from. It didn't come from me.

54:20 The question that came out was, Has there ever been a time in your marriage when she wasn't biting her nails? Great question. Now, do you see the path there? It's like straight line. He stops. He looks up and he says, come to think of it, which by the way, somebody says, come to think of it. What's happening? Light bulb. Light bulb. Yep. Come to think of it. My wife and I got separated for a period of time. Then we got back together. For the first six months of us being back together, she wasn't biting her nails.

55:01 Now we've got it. Now we're there. And so the next question I asked was, and I'm sure you're already probably thinking it, Ryan. What were you doing then that you're not doing today? And I kid you not, and I exaggerate not, because this is exactly how the story went. He looks at me. A tear starts to roll down his cheek. He nods. And he walks away. Got it. Got it. What's wild is I once presented that scenario to 200 of the top business coaches in the UK.

55:46 And they all agreed that the only way to handle that situation, this is before I told the answer. Sure. The only way to handle that situation was say, could we take this offline? And my response to them was, but if you could solve it in 60 seconds, would you want to know how? And that is what happens when you become truly extraordinary with the art of the question. And as I drove away that day, two things came to my mind. One, why did he ask me that after I taught him about marketing? Two, how did I know to ask that question correctly?

56:32 And I think it just came from the fact that for 20 years, I've been obsessing about this beautiful art that you and I love so much, Ryan, which is the art of communication. Yeah, man. It's good stuff, brother. So good. I feel like... Listen, this is selfish. I feel like I've gotten such tremendous value from this podcast. And thank you for everything that you delivered today. Being that we're up against time, I'll keep it short. Honestly, Marcus, I want to honor you for everything that you're doing in the world, brother. It's so needed. It's so necessary. This is such an important skill.

57:13 The books that you're writing, the talks that you're giving, the people that you're connecting with. And honestly, I meant what I said at the beginning, and I'll say it again. You are just such a true and genuine human being. And I feel the love and the thoughtfulness and the intention behind your words that that in and of itself is remarkable and extraordinary. And I just want to thank you for that. I know that that in combination with your brilliance and the last 20 years of obsession over this very, very important topic are going to make this, you know, an unbelievably impactful episode for people. And by the way, I, I want you to notice that you're listening to this right now. Marcus made good on his promise.

57:54 Impactful stuff that you can go out and implement right now. So please, if you're listening to this right now, do not leave this alone in a vacuum. Go back, take notes, draw your quadrant, do your real role-playing. and go and implement these things because in the absence of that, all of this beautiful goodness is for naught. So Marcus, thank you, man. This was amazing. I honestly hope we get a chance to do it again because I feel like we could probably just go on for days. But thank you for being here. I greatly appreciate you and all that you're doing, brother. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Coaching Equation Podcast.

58:37 Until next time, take care. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Coaching Equation. Please hit subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you got value out of this episode, we would be so grateful if you would share it out with a friend and leave us a review on iTunes or your favorite platform. To learn more about Empire Partners or to inquire about working with Ryan and Brooke, please visit www.empirepartners.io forward slash go.